Recessive Slate Turkeys (from Porter's)

[R2elk]

I'd like to reroute this thread slightly--APA SOP

I understand the concepts behind reviving an ancient/heritage variety. My question however has to do with the future, namely will the Recessive breeders be seeking APA acceptance and its own SOP? I am familiar with how rabbit/cavy breeds/varieties are approved and the long involved process--how does it work with APA certification? Are you all working on the SOP for variety? I know for rabbits it's common to have several breeders working to improve the genetics for not just the color, but the conformation, reproductive soundness, etc. Are you singly or wholly working on improvements as well as color or is color the only criteria at the moment?

The first part of this contains Section 2. Admission of Breeds and Varieties. Unfortunately the link to the official pdf is returning a 404 error. There must be at least 5 different breeders that are at least 18 years old and must have been members of the APA for at least 5 years.

https://www.iowabluechickenclub.com/petitioning-apa-for-sop-acceptance.html

While APA recognition may be a future goal and an SOP is definitely needed, APA recognition is not necessarily needed. The APA is about showing poultry. If a person is not into showing poultry, APA has no value other than the SOP. It is not a registry. It will not increase the value of the birds except to those that are interested in showing them.

 

[WVduckchick]

Good healthy debate folks! I can see points on both sides.

And dang, what a beautiful bird!!

 

[Kiki]

 

[WunnySharbit]

The first part of this contains Section 2. Admission of Breeds and Varieties. Unfortunately the link to the official pdf is returning a 404 error. There must be at least 5 different breeders that are at least 18 years old and must have been members of the APA for at least 5 years.

https://www.iowabluechickenclub.com/petitioning-apa-for-sop-acceptance.html

While APA recognition may be a future goal and an SOP is definitely needed, APA recognition is not necessarily needed. The APA is about showing poultry. If a person is not into showing poultry, APA has no value other than the SOP. It is not a registry. It will not increase the value of the birds except to those that are interested in showing them.

(whistle) That's pretty intense! I thought rabbit guidelines were tough, but I like these a lot--member (in good standing!!) for 5 years x5; 5 exhibitors, 5 birds in each class; very thorough. And, yes, I understand the SOP/APA is only about showing (it doesn't necessarily guarantee quality either!), I was just curious as to the process and the mindset of you breeders. It's not about the money or fame/GC total or anything else but the love of the animal and the joy in seeing hard work and persistence pay off!
I look forward to watching how this unfolds!

 

[ShannonR]

How would they ever enforce that contract. Unrealistic

Yeah, making such stringent contractual demands on birds that lack any kind of standard (SOP) and therefore can't be bred to any standard doesn't really seem like something that I (nor many others) would be very interested in. Is this even s variety, or just another color? An SOP is desperately needed to generate breeder interest, which is where the APA acceptance bit comes in.

I'm not sure what, exactly, Porter is attempting to preserve by this contract unless it is a single recessive gene, which is very arguably nonexistent in US. poultry. By its very nature, one wouldn't know if the recessive slate gene exists in our poultry since nobody breeds to it nor is crossbreeding using this gene to find out if any US poultry carries the slate gene. The extinct bit is pretty presumptuous, to be frank. The "bastardization" of this so called variety (color) might actually serve some good, if folks were to experiment keeping this in mind.
This contract certainly isn't for the faint of heart since it calls for killing (as opposed to culling) one's own birds in certain circumstances.

Awful lot of trouble to go to for a single recessive gene, but if you would like to tie yourself up in such a contract then by all means, carry on.

 

[R2elk]

Yeah, making such stringent contractual demands on birds that lack any kind of standard (SOP) and therefore can't be bred to any standard doesn't really seem like something that I (nor many others) would be very interested in. Is this even s variety, or just another color? An SOP is desperately needed to generate breeder interest, which is where the APA acceptance bit comes in.

I'm not sure what, exactly, Porter is attempting to preserve by this contract unless it is a single recessive gene, which is very arguably nonexistent in US. poultry. By its very nature, one wouldn't know if the recessive slate gene exists in our poultry since nobody breeds to it nor is crossbreeding using this gene to find out if any US poultry carries the slate gene. The extinct bit is pretty presumptuous, to be frank. The "bastardization" of this so called variety (color) might actually serve some good, if folks were to experiment keeping this in mind.
This contract certainly isn't for the faint of heart since it calls for killing (as opposed to culling) one's own birds in certain circumstances.

Awful lot of trouble to go to for a single recessive gene, but if you would like to tie yourself up in such a contract then by all means, carry on.

I am sure that Porter either has or is in the process of making an SOP and he definitely has a standard that he is breeding to.

The only thing that APA recognition does for it is in the case of showing them. There are many of us that have no interest in showing our turkeys meaning that APA recognition is not important to us. While APA recognition is not important to me, it does not mean that I don't have high standards for my turkeys.

The Recessive Slates and Recessive Lilacs are varieties of the breed Turkey. They both breed true which is something that cannot be said about Blue Slates which are recognized b y the APA.

The "bastardization" of the variety that is worrisome is that some unscrupulous people will breed in the dominant slate gene making it almost impossible to know whether the offspring are recessive slates or not and extremely difficult to breed the dominant slate gene back out.

The only way he can try to keep the variety pure is to try to control the breeding. I am sure he is making crosses with Bronze turkeys in an attempt to widen the gene pool. I am also sure that Porter is not making crosses with any varieties that contain the dominant slate gene.

You have clearly stated that you have no interest in these varieties so I don't understand why you continue to bad mouth Porter and these varieties.

 

[ShannonR]

I am sure that Porter either has or is in the process of making an SOP and he definitely has a standard that he is breeding to.

The only thing that APA recognition does for it is in the case of showing them. There are many of us that have no interest in showing our turkeys meaning that APA recognition is not important to us. While APA recognition is not important to me, it does not mean that I don't have high standards for my turkeys.

The Recessive Slates and Recessive Lilacs are varieties of the breed Turkey. They both breed true which is something that cannot be said about Blue Slates which are recognized b y the APA.

The "bastardization" of the variety that is worrisome is that some unscrupulous people will breed in the dominant slate gene making it almost impossible to know whether the offspring are recessive slates or not and extremely difficult to breed the dominant slate gene back out.

The only way he can try to keep the variety pure is to try to control the breeding. I am sure he is making crosses with Bronze turkeys in an attempt to widen the gene pool. I am also sure that Porter is not making crosses with any varieties that contain the dominant slate gene.

You have clearly stated that you have no interest in these varieties so I don't understand why you continue to bad mouth Porter and these varieties.

Thanks for the thorough reply! I think I'm starting to understand, the breeding program at this point is mostly to retain homozygousity of the slate color gene then, right? That is something I can wrap my head around, although it would sure be nice if the standard for this variery were accessible to non-breeders of these birds. Without knowing what standard the slates are bred to, how could a potential breeder possibly ascertain whether they would like to enter into such a strenuous contractual agreement?

To me, showing is important. The ability to show is, anyway, whether or not the birds actually go to shows is a little bit less relevant to me. The APA standard of perfection publicizes and makes variety standard info public, published, and easily accessible to breeders. I would still assert that APA standardization has its purpose, for this reason if no other.

I still have no interest in promoting a variety which may just be a color, without first knowing specifically what I am promoting. Any standard being bred to needs to be easily accessible and publicised, not kept a secret from anyone who doesn't happen to have some of these birds. Especially at the expense of a very controlling contract such as this. I am not intentionally badmouthing Porter, but I am badmouthing the concept of such a harsh contractual agreement to preserve what amounts to a single gene type as opposed to a disctinct variety of turkey. Such overkill, and I feel that fact really deserves its due consideration.

 

[R2elk]

Thanks for the thorough reply! I think I'm starting to understand, the breeding program at this point is mostly to retain homozygousity of the slate color gene then, right? That is something I can wrap my head around, although it would sure be nice if the standard for this variety were accessible to non-breeders of these birds. Without knowing what standard the slates are bred to, how could a potential breeder possibly ascertain whether they would like to enter into such a strenuous contractual agreement?

Other than the color aspect, you can look at the SOP for most of the recognized varieties to determine what the standard will be. The contract is not for everyone, me included. Its purpose is control over the variety to make sure no one is doing anything to harm the development of the variety. If it were up to me, I would also require all participants to be NPIP certified.

To me, showing is important. The ability to show is, anyway, whether or not the birds actually go to shows is a little bit less relevant to me. The APA standard of perfection publicizes and makes variety standard info public, published, and easily accessible to breeders. I would still assert that APA standardization has its purpose, for this reason if no other.

I agree that APA recognition is very important to people that show their poultry. I also know that there are far more people that don't show their poultry than there are people that do show them meaning that APA recognition is not necessary for the development of the variety to be considered successful. I also happen to know that there are currently errors in the APA's SOPs concerning some turkey varieties. An example is the eye color requirement for Blue Slate turkeys. Blue Slates are black based and have blue eyes but the SOP calls for brown eyes.

I still have no interest in promoting a variety which may just be a color, without first knowing specifically what I am promoting. Any standard being bred to needs to be easily accessible and publicized, not kept a secret from anyone who doesn't happen to have some of these birds. Especially at the expense of a very controlling contract such as this. I am not intentionally badmouthing Porter, but I am badmouthing the concept of such a harsh contractual agreement to preserve what amounts to a single gene type as opposed to a distinct variety of turkey. Such overkill, and I feel that fact really deserves its due consideration.

It is fine that you are not interested in promoting this variety or any other variety. In turkeys there is only the breed turkey and then there are varieties. At this time there is no color breakdown in regard to any of the varieties. It is possible in the future that such a thing may occur. An example would be Sweetgrass turkeys which can be a number of different shades. However Sweetgrass turkeys are not APA recognized and I am not aware of any current attempts to get them recognized.

The recessive slates are definitely not a color of some other variety. They are distinctive in their appearance and their color genes. Other than Porter's recently developed Recessive Lilac variety, no other variety is known to carry the recessive slate color gene. It is a recessive color gene and not one that appears to be able to cause changes in colors unless it is homozygous, (red is a recessive color gene that can cause a different outward appearance even in a heterozygous condition).

The best way to find out what the status of an SOP or what standard Porter is breeding for, is to contact him directly through Porter' Rare Heritage Turkeys.

 

[Finnie]

Without knowing what standard the slates are bred to, how could a potential breeder possibly ascertain whether they would like to enter into such a strenuous contractual agreement?

They would talk to Kevin personally. At length.

That's the whole point. It's strenuous to weed out those who are not serious.

I think he should make it "by invitation only". And require referrals and references.

 

[OneMountainAcres]

I just read through this whole thread ... Wow . Good points all around. They are a stunningly beautiful bird! Someday, I'd like to get one for yard candy. The contract wouldn't work out for me, in my case, but I definitely see what he's trying to do.