Recessive wheaten question

[nicalandia]

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I will not coment on this issue as this guys have so much experience in their hands I dare not to offend them... but I'll tell you something, one day god willing you will have the chance to prove if this is right or wrong... Here in Nicaragua we the Sport is Strong(CockFighting) this guys are serious about breeding the best with only the best and will stay away from mutts like the plage, but some of their tales on how they got a particular color just don't add up... this is the last thing I'll have to say about this subject...


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maybe Cubalaya's Brown Red is indeed based on Wheaten with extra melanizer(to cover the wing triangle in black and melanize the hens)... have you seen Brown Red chicks..? are they wheaten looking?

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by now you probably get the idea that Wheaten is the most Volatile of the "e" Alleles some are completely devoided of Melanin, some chicks have faint white line and some have alot of melanin.. I'll post some pics and some readings when I find it

 

[nicalandia]

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here is a Gallina Murciana(from spain) wheaten..


Salmon Faverolles based on silver wheaten


and ofcourse the "Duckwing" Cubalaya based on wheaten


some reading

http://books.google.com/books?id=VM...=PA117#v=snippet&q=wheaten chick down&f=false

 

[gallorojo]

That Galliana Murciana is very interesting, first I've heard of them....

 

[tadkerson]

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How fast you can produce a red pyle depends upon the genes ( in the chickens) that are hypostatic to the dominant white gene. Or in other words what genes are hidden under the white. If a person used a bird that carried dominant white and the bird is completely white; that means the bird is completely black- or black and white (silver) under the white. Birds that are self black can carry silver or gold. The silver allele and gold allele are sex linked- so that throws a monkey wrench into the works.

A person would want the male part of the first cross to be a wheaten (gold duck wing), this would cut down on the number of crosses that would have to be made. The female would have to be the dominant white bird.

I could go on and on, but choose not to. I would agree that it will take 2-3 generations to produce a red pyle but if the genetics are correct it could be accomplished in one cross. The problem with white birds is that they hide genes under the white.

Recessive white can not be used to produce red pyles. If a recessive white bird was to leak some red, it would not be enough to make a red pyle. Birds that are recessive white lack the ability to produce an enzyme called tyrosinase- with out tyrosinase pigments can not be produced. Dominant white works differently on the cell level than recessive white- it is complicated but in general it has to do with the way the black pigments are packaged and moved inside the melanocytes.

If you cross a recessive white bird with a wheaten, all of the chicks will be some color but not white. That is why the phenotype is called recessive white- it takes two recessive white genes one from each parent to make a white bird.

If you then cross two of the siblings, then some of the offspring will be recessive white.



If a person crosses a dominant white female with a wheaten male- then there are two possibilities; 1. the offspring adult phenotypes are white leaking red and or white and or white leaking black and or white leaking black and red 2. the offspring adult phenotypes are number one and birds that are not white

Heterozygous dominant whites can have flecks of black in their feathers.

It is possible that the birds carry dominant white and recessive white- there are other breeds of birds that carry both. Most white breeds carry recessive white.



Brown reds that have a crow wing are birchen and not wheaten. You can produce false brown red birds from wheaten but they will be a duckwing and not a crow wing. Birchen is not always dominant over wheaten. You could have a dark wheaten that carries birchen and wheaten.

I can not explain the smokey down chick. I have never produced a smokey down wheaten chick . I have produced heterozygous wheaten/birchen chicks that have smokey backs. You can get smokey down on recessive white chicks.

Tim

 

[cubakid]

This is one of our F1 White X Wheaten Cubalaya

Zach

 

[gallorojo]

Thank you Tim, very through explanation, a great reply!!!

 

[tadkerson]

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Zach,

He is a handsome bird. The dominant white gene is quirky and leaks red and black in all kinds of strange ways. You never know what part of the chicken will leak black or red. I never had a bird leak that much black in the pyle region and in the wings. It is unusual that he has the black on his back and shoulders.

Some of the pyle region on your bird is black because your bird is heterozygous wheaten at the E locus and carries a heterozygous melanizer (black back and shoulders) . The wing bay on your bird is black (he is a crow wing)- indicating the other E locus allele is birchen or extended black. I would say the bird is birchen and wheaten. I am assuming you crossed a wheaten with a white bird.


If you cross him with wheaten hens- some of the offspring will be homozygous wheaten and heterozygous dominant white red pyle. The probabilities are one chance in four that you will get homozygous wheaten and heterozygous dominant white red pyle. This probability does not include the melanizer in the calculation.

Then cross the red pyle offspring (homozygous wheaten and heterozygous dominant white) siblings to produce homozygous dominant white red pyle.


gallorojo,

Here are some wheatens and wheaten heterozygotes that hatched several days ago. They are 4 generations from the original parents. The wheaten allele is from a rhode island red. The original cross was a barred rhode island red x appenzeller spitzhauben.

This is a homozygous wheaten chick. Note the nice clean feet and shanks and bill.

This is a heterozygous birchen/wheaten chick. Note the black pigment in the shank and foot. You can not see it very well but they also have black pigment in the bill.

Tim

 

[gallorojo]

Oh, wow, the colored foot thing!!

I have some really odd foot colors combos coming out this year, will have to get some chick pics soon.

 

[nicalandia]

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Thanks Tim, this clearly shows that some Times E^R is Not Dominant over Wheaten...

Below are my recent work with a Homo Wheaten hen and a ER/eb rooster
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this is her Mother Lemon Buff Naked Neck Cochin I raised her since Hatch...she is Homo wheaten(Clear wheaten chick down)she has Long Legs..


Here the Chicks Dad..(suspected ER/eb)


Here is Mommy suspected for Het Blue(only one feather shows anyother color other than her Self Buff body) you'll have to excuse her she is in broody mood and her feathers don't look as good as normal
Here you can see her Tail feathers, you can see Blue color leaking


here with her only 2 chicks, the suspected eWh/eb chick its behind and the suspected ER/eWh infront



here is the ER/eWh Blue chick




below pics are my lemon hen with the only 2 chicks





here at a latter date..


Thanks..

 

[saladin]

The original white 'sport' was brassy in the hackle, shoulders and saddle feather (which is why I bred them to blues: to clean that up per Jefferies; it works). My belief in it being recessive white was because it had disappeared for so long; since the wheaten is recessive for the white to come from the matings of 2 wheatens that's all I could imagine it was/is. I don't know how incomplete dominate white could be that recessive for so long? Not saying it couldn't; I just couldn't imagine it being so. Remember, the White Cubalaya disappeared from the American scene for at least 20 years if not 30.

By breeding the brassy sport back to wheaten I would have thought it would have produced some offspring that were brassy white: it didn't. Instead, by doing it again in the second year there were some cinnamon pyle pullets. Then I bred those to a Wheaten male: that is how I developed my Red Pyles. Actually, this was how Craig Russell had made the ones that Glenn Drowns now has 25+ years ago. I just reproduced what he had done.

As to the Brown Reds: Glenn's began to appear 2 years before mine (at that time he had none of my stuff: since then he does) out of straight wheaten to wheaten breeding. These had never appeared before in his hatches. Mine were made differently. I made mine by crossing my Blacks to wheaten hens. Some of the wheaten males show breast lacing of brown/red and always have. Thus, I knew I could get the required breast lacing that Brown Red has. Since Brown Red is crow-wing and not duckwing it was not hard to get as the Blacks will coverup the brown in the primaries of the wheatens in the first generation. Thus, Glenn's were sports but mine were not.

I have never had another White sport other than my original cock even though I have crossed the same strains repeatedly to try and get one.