Red Laced Cornish X and project talk (pics p. 8)

[sixpugs]

I've never really understood the reasoning for breeding to a standard, if the bird can't survive without human help or has a purpose. At least with modern turkeys that need AI, they are bred for the table. What is the point of a big Cornish that can barely stand, or breed by itself if it has no other use?

There is a difference between standardizing an animal (SOP), and breeding for something that is a "guess what" result. The reason we have breeds such as Cornish, Wyandottes, Rhode Island Reds, Barred Rocks etc. is because many individuals got together and created predictable breeds. In order to do that, you have to have a standard guide to the ideal animal. Most people don't achieve the perfection, but in trying to do so, we have breeds that are easily recognized and breed true to their own type. You also should be aware, that most people breed true to the SOP, for exhibition purposes, not really for production purposes. These giant, topheavy, big boned birds are unique and served a purpose at one time. Now, for efficiency, they have Cornish X and assorted other crosses to suit production needs. Lots and lots of people love the SOP Cornish and regard the tricks to achieve those looks and maintenance to be all part of the responsibility and enjoyment for their choice. Anyone and their uncle can create whatever crosses they want, but they most likely will not breed true for generations. I am constantly amazed by people who complain about Breed Standards in any purebred animal, go off and breed their own crosses or version of them, then complain about the people who enjoy breeding to that standard. Example, I read on a group once about a woman who looked long and hard for French Bulldogs with drop ears. The hallmark of the breed is those adorable "bat" ears and she hated them, so she was going to create her own line of drop-eared Frenchies.

I thought it was insane and irritating, but you know what? I firmly believe & support her choice and I hope nobody thought they were getting a quality, standard dog from her.

So, while I do like the look of the Cornish, I'm breeding for the strongest, healthiest birds. Not to somebodies idea of "perfection", because everyone's ideas of perfection are different!
That is great, but don't expect your birds to consistently resemble Cornish. You're welcome to do whatever you like, but don't rip on people who choose to make those nice standardized breeds their hobby/choice and have breeds such as Ameraucanas & Cornish for you to enjoy.

My perfect bird would lay rainbow eggs, have a small or non existent comb (cold hardy) tight feathering (don't get wet and muddy as much) thrifty and forage for much of their food, be "predator" aware, lay a decent number of eggs and dress out well with tasty meat.
Tight feathered breeds do not tolerate the cold well. Trying to limit the amount of fluff & leg feathering is one thing, but hard, tight feathers will not tolerate weather extremes.
As for colors of the rainbow, crests & muffs, we're not really talking about Cornish or Cornish X anymore, are we?

Is that so much to ask for? Nope, just don't call your product a "Cornish" or for that matter "Ameraucana."​

(And if they came in every colour under the rainbow, and some had tiny crests and muffs, that would just be icing on the cake for me)

 

[Totalcolour]

A Place For Everything
​

I don't think anyone should be "bashing" anyone else about anything they do regarding what they are breeding or why.

Every individual has the right to breed whatever birds they like. Nobody has a "RESPONSIBILITY" to breed a certain way, for type, for feather colour or size etc. If a person takes a responsibility, it is their own choice. It is not forced upon anyone by anyone else, and nor should it be.

Nobody "HAS" to sell a bird to anyone else. However, if a breed is to survive, it's probably a good idea for breeders to share, and encourage new breeders to raise those birds, and raise at least SOME of them as purebreds and to type.

Sometimes, crosses can turn out better than either parent and produce a new type or breed itself (if it breeds true). This is a good thing. But, keeping the heritage breeds is good too, so that we have genetic diversity and a good gene pool to introduce into the new breeds. It is a shame when a breed is lost, because even though people "try" to re-create it, it really is not the "SAME" bird, but a copy, albeit a good one. I know this because I did a cross as an experiment, and every Icelandic fancier who saw it, thought it was a pure Icelandic chicken. In fact, the only way I could tell it apart from one of the PUREBRED Icelandics, was that I had banded the purebred before introducing her to the flock. And as you breeders know, most, if not all of us can identify an individual chicken at a 100 yards

I'm sure there are a lot of people out there, selling "crosses" as the real thing. This does a lot of damage to the breed and to the credibility of the breeders. So I understand WHY so many Cornish breeders are unwilling to sell eggs or birds to novices or people they don't know. It's a shame since there are some good people out there who want to continue to breed to type, as well as to experiment with "projects".

Just my take on thing folks - I shall keep breeding my purebreds and my projects, and enjoying them all. I shall be honest with anyone who buys a bird or egg, about it's genetics, and charge appropriately. I trust that everyone who deals with me does the same.

 

[galanie]

A Place For Everything​

I don't think anyone should be "bashing" anyone else about anything they do regarding what they are breeding or why.

Every individual has the right to breed whatever birds they like. Nobody has a "RESPONSIBILITY" to breed a certain way, for type, for feather colour or size etc. If a person takes a responsibility, it is their own choice. It is not forced upon anyone by anyone else, and nor should it be.

Nobody "HAS" to sell a bird to anyone else. However, if a breed is to survive, it's probably a good idea for breeders to share, and encourage new breeders to raise those birds, and raise at least SOME of them as purebreds and to type.

Sometimes, crosses can turn out better than either parent and produce a new type or breed itself (if it breeds true). This is a good thing. But, keeping the heritage breeds is good too, so that we have genetic diversity and a good gene pool to introduce into the new breeds. It is a shame when a breed is lost, because even though people "try" to re-create it, it really is not the "SAME" bird, but a copy, albeit a good one. I know this because I did a cross as an experiment, and every Icelandic fancier who saw it, thought it was a pure Icelandic chicken. In fact, the only way I could tell it apart from one of the PUREBRED Icelandics, was that I had banded the purebred before introducing her to the flock. And as you breeders know, most, if not all of us can identify an individual chicken at a 100 yards

I'm sure there are a lot of people out there, selling "crosses" as the real thing. This does a lot of damage to the breed and to the credibility of the breeders. So I understand WHY so many Cornish breeders are unwilling to sell eggs or birds to novices or people they don't know. It's a shame since there are some good people out there who want to continue to breed to type, as well as to experiment with "projects".

Just my take on thing folks - I shall keep breeding my purebreds and my projects, and enjoying them all. I shall be honest with anyone who buys a bird or egg, about it's genetics, and charge appropriately. I trust that everyone who deals with me does the same.

 

[Totalcolour]

Quote:

So many contradictions here! The reason for so many predictable breeds is NOT becasue there was a standard - the Chicken came befroe the standard! People bred different birds and came out with one that looked nice, and when they could breed true, THEN THEY DECIDED ON THE STANDARD"

Tight feathering is standard for Cornish I thought, so why bring that up?

As for my ideal bird, never said it was a Cornish, and I wouldn't call it one.

My Cornish are kept pure, and then I have projects, like I said in my last post.

I haven't "RIPPED" on anyone as you put it. If you look at my previous post you will note I said there is a place for everything.

While I don't understand why people breed for Exhibition only, expressing that sentiment is NOT RIPPING on them. It is simply a statement of my lack of understanding of that particular mindset. That was the fisrt paragraph you quoted - "I don't understand. . . " it's NOT Bashing or RIPPING ON ANYONE

And, you will also note in my last post, I said I ALWAYS am truthful about the genetics and parentage of ALL my birds and eggs to anyone who buys them.

So before going off on someone, perhaps you should read the post more carefully, to make sure you understand what it is EXACTLY they are saying.

If you aren't English, or American, then you can be forgiven for mistaking my words - language difficulties often end up in misunderstandings in the written word.

 

[Cedarknob]

OOOPS! I called the guy with the Rooster, and he told me it was a Marans! (I took the Dark Cornish girl over to his place). I would have thought the "barring" was perhaps lacing from the hen, or perhaps cuckoo from the Marans! I like them though.

That does explain the way the chicks are colored, and they may turn out to be pretty meaty as well as pretty good layers of brown eggs. I'm not sure, but the white spots on the heads were what made me think they were carrying a gene for barring, and might indicate that those two are males, but really do not have a clue about how the barring gene works on crosses with laced chickens.

edited to add for you TC, Cornish were once the only source for the young, heavy breasted chicken wanted for the table, the original Cornish hen. I've been told that the shape and heavy muscling made it necessary to either pasture range the breeding stock to keep them agile and limber enough to breed, or hand bred. Today what we buy as a Cornish hen in the super market is just a CX processed at 4 weeks, has neither the flavor or texture once so highly regarded, but much cheaper to produce. There is still no other breed of chicken ever developed that has the amount of meat found on a Cornish except the CX [of the course the CX is not really a breed], which have their own reproductive problems as well those associated with their rapid growth, and not considered as flavorful as I've been told that true Cornish are. I've read that Marans were also once highly touted as a flavorful and meaty table bird, though obviously not as meaty as the Cornish, and now bred primarily for their very deep brown egg color.

 

[sixpugs]

So many contradictions here! The reason for so many predictable breeds is NOT becasue there was a standard - the Chicken came befroe the standard! People bred different birds and came out with one that looked nice, and when they could breed true, THEN THEY DECIDED ON THE STANDARD"
Not exactly, but close. The point was, you said you never understood the reasoning of breeding to a standard. I gave you my experience and understanding as to why they do. The standards were in place, to keep things like odd combs, off colors, off tails, feathers where they aren't supposed to be etc. from becoming common place in different breeds.

Tight feathering is standard for Cornish I thought, so why bring that up? Because you said your ideal was a small or non-existent comb and tight feathering for cold tolerance. Cornish do not tolerate wet/cold temperatures anymore than extremes in heat. OTOH, Cochins tolerate the cold and drop like flies in the heat.

As for my ideal bird, never said it was a Cornish, and I wouldn't call it one. I never said you did, but you're on a Cornish, Cornish X thread and were putting down standard bred Cornish. Apparently you don't breed SOP Cornish.
My Cornish are kept pure, and then I have projects, like I said in my last post. That's nice.

While I don't understand why people breed for Exhibition only, expressing that sentiment is NOT RIPPING on them. It is simply a statement of my lack of understanding of that particular mindset. That was the fisrt paragraph you quoted - "I don't understand. . . " it's NOT Bashing or RIPPING ON ANYONE I believe your statment was a little inflamatory (and if not, my mistake....can't see facial expressions and hear voice tone from posts) and I have seen plenty of exhibition Cornish, both LF & Bantam, that had no trouble walking, bred naturally & manage to provide meat from the culls for their owners. So they serve a purpose to them. Commercial Cornish X are a terminal animal and if kept alive longer than a couple of months, will frequently become crippled and die from various ailments caused by accelerated growth.

And, you will also note in my last post, I said I ALWAYS am truthful about the genetics and parentage of ALL my birds and eggs to anyone who buys them.
I believe I was using a generic "you" in my statements. I'm sure you're honest and we've never done business, so I have no reason to believe otherwise. I'm just saying nobody making crosses, should expect people to assume they are getting a breed, as opposed to a cross.

So before going off on someone, perhaps you should read the post more carefully, to make sure you understand what it is EXACTLY they are saying. I don't think I went "off" on anyone. I answered your statment about not understanding the reasoning of breeding to a standard. Again, to review, I MERELY gave you my understanding of the reasoning. Why are you trying to hard to be insulted?

If you aren't English, or American, then you can be forgiven for mistaking my words - language difficulties often end up in misunderstandings in the written word. Understood you perfectly.

Now, I am not going to keep this tit for tat going with you. I answered your statment/question, because it seemed like you were asking a question. Apparently, it was a rhetorical question and you need no explanation or feedback to your posts, if they don't agree with you. No problem, I'm done.

 

[Totalcolour]

 

[galanie]

Nice. Now can we get back to the subject and quit bashing Cornish breeders or each other while we're at it?
I'm just tickled that this "argument" appears to be about over.

 

[Totalcolour]

edited to add for you TC, Cornish were once the only source for the young, heavy breasted chicken wanted for the table, the original Cornish hen. I've been told that the shape and heavy muscling made it necessary to either pasture range the breeding stock to keep them agile and limber enough to breed, or hand bred. Today what we buy as a Cornish hen in the super market is just a CX processed at 4 weeks, has neither the flavor or texture once so highly regarded, but much cheaper to produce. There is still no other breed of chicken ever developed that has the amount of meat found on a Cornish except the CX [of the course the CX is not really a breed], which have their own reproductive problems as well those associated with their rapid growth, and not considered as flavorful as I've been told that true Cornish are. I've read that Marans were also once highly touted as a flavorful and meaty table bird, though obviously not as meaty as the Cornish, and now bred primarily for their very deep brown egg color.

One of the reasons I chose to include the Cornish in my flock, is that I'm British. For some time as a child I lived on a farm, and the chickens we had for Sunday dinner were outstanding.

I also rather like the Sussex, which though not nearly as meaty, does have exceptional flavour. I did have a hatchery dark Cornish Cockerel which was very flavourful indeed, although being hatchery, he certainly wasn't the size of a good breeder quality bird.

I'm hoping the two Marans/Cornish are one of either sex. If they turn out well, I may include them in my "project". The Sussex cross is looking pretty good too.

I think perhaps that in days gone by, a big bird was necessary since families were typically bigger. Nowadays, with smaller families, I don't suppose a huge bird is often wanted.

Green Fire Farms is selling some French birds, "Bresse" I think, that are famed in France for their flavour, but I don't think they will ever compare to a good Cornish (but then I'm a bit prejudiced

)

 

[chickened]

When breeding birds for improvement to your own birds you look for desirable traits in other birds and you obtain that bird for sometimes just one or a few traits then get that trait into your lines. So when I want a bird from someone it may be for one trait not a carbon copy of their bird. One example is leg color if I have a bird with dark legs and want more bright yellow legs that I may want a bird from a breeder with birds that have the legs I am looking for and it is possible that there are other traits that are undesirable to me but I know I can breed them out. And if you wish to experience a real bashing let an APA judge take a look at your birds... thicker skin is a requirement. The breeders with nice birds do not have to answer to me and I do not expect it of them, they know criticism is part of the package when you post pictures of birds or show them. What I tire of is explaining this to thin skinned newbies. Have you noticed they are not here defending themselves? I actually prefer my birds get critiqued it shows me were I need improvement with my birds ... and my attitude.

I really was not looking for an argument, and really must be dumber than a brick wall, because though I am trying, I really do not understand your posts. I read your page about your "ideal meat project" and the statement there that you are promoting your birds as just that, the ideal meat birds. Yet I've read that if you want to feed chickens to eat, you will buy CX, and consider anything else not worth while, even ludicrous, and another that you keep your chickens because they lay eggs and look good doing it.

I also fail to understand why both you and chickened are bashing breeders of show quality Cornish for breeding them to be built "wrong", then bash them again as being selfish for not selling them to the people who do not like the way show quality Cornish look. Do either of you really expect those show breeders to be happy to sell their Cornish to people who think that show quality Cornish are not built correctly? Now I do understand the reasoning behind keeping a breed capable of live breeding, but fail to understand why you think those show breeders are being selfish by not selling to the people that bash them for what they have bred their Cornish to look like. I like the Cornish in those pictures of Al's and Pepper's, they do look like a lot the pictures from the 50's of ideal Cornish, as well as the colored paintings in the current version of the APA SOP. That type is what made them so desirable to the first developers of the CX to cross on faster maturing breeds, the reason that pure Cornish were bought up by buyers for developing the CX, causing the already rare breed became even more rare. Now instead of thanking the few breeders that are clinging stubbornly to breeding their wide Cornish, some are both insulting the few breeders having them, and then turning around and calling them selfish for not selling some to them.

The best Cornish may have always have been difficult to breed, I do not have any experience before a few years ago, but have been told that they were. I know the modern CX are; both their male and female parents have to be kept on very controlled diets just to keep them physically capable of live breeding and the cost of labor makes A.I impractical on commercial meat birds [of course even then they last only for a few months, and only commercial growers are allowed to buy the parent lines anyway]. If the breeders of show quality Cornish go to the added trouble of keeping one of those cocks breeding naturally by meeting their special needs, or willing to A.I. them after they reach their mature size and width, and unwilling to sell to someone not willing to go to those lengths, I certainly am not going to bash the breeder. I can't really blame serious breeders of either Cornish or meat bird projects that were posting on the early pages back earlier and seem to have disappeared, and considering it myself, because I really did not join this thread to have to justify why I breed quality Cornish, who I sell to, how many I sell, or why I would also like to develop a meat bird line that would be be easier to breed but better than the chicks sold as dual purpose breeds by a hatchery. Maybe I just need to be thicker skinned.