Red Laced Cornish X and project talk (pics p. 8)

[KatyTheChickenLady]

steveh . . . hmmm . . . I understand your skepticism and tend to agree with it.

 

[Germaine_11.20]

Quote:
They are awesome. Are you trying AI? Al can you tell me how long the Cornish take to really start to fill out. My Dark Cornish roo has looked scrawny up until about a week ago. All of a sudden he seems to be "filling in" getting broader.
The only things I can account for that is either time or that I took out the more aggressive roos that he shared a coop with and maybe that had an effect (feed?) on him. But he got wider and quick!

 

[SteveH]

Quote:
While its good to try things a different way , I'm not so quick these days to be skeptical of old " tried and true " methods even though there may be no scientific logic behind it . I believe the Cornish was from the male side of the crosses on commercial meaties , though I could be wrong .

Here's a quote of Hans L Schippers's " History of the Chantecler " :
" Around 1910 an Indian Gamecock was crossed with a white Leghorn hen and a Rhode Island Red cock was crossed with a white Wyandotte hen. The hens from the first crossing were then mated to a cock of the second crossing. From those crossings, hens were selected on egg and meat qualities and they were paired to a white Plymouth Rock cock. From the following generations, only the best white dual-purpose birds were selected and those were hence known as Chanteclers. "

While I intend to breed for a muff and beard , and pea comb instead of cushion ; these old pictures of early Chanteclers are very close to my goal . Notice how close to a straight white Cornish these Chanteclers appear , yet they averaged 200 + eggs per year .

 

[Germaine_11.20]

Very interesting Steve. I have read several different theories on where the meaties originated.

Just the other day in "Poultry for anyone" by Victoria Roberts
she stated that the "modern broiler is a product of the Sussex and Indian Game, so the breed has made an immense contribution to the poultry industry as well as being a popular backyard breed."

I would suppose there are quite a few contributions to this breed!

 

[SteveH]

Quote:
Man I would have loved getting ahold of something like your birds ! Will you be simply selecting for longer legs in their offspring or adding outside blood ?
My opinion often angers many people , but it seems to me that breeding for showing at conformation is nearly always detrimental to the breed involved .

 

[KatyTheChickenLady]

great pics and info steve!
as for you Rusyswoman; when do you have time to read???? lol

 

[al6517]

Quote:
Man I would have loved getting ahold of something like your birds ! Will you be simply selecting for longer legs in their offspring or adding outside blood ?
My opinion often angers many people , but it seems to me that breeding for showing at conformation is nearly always detrimental to the breed involved .

I am keeping some trio's of pure standard whites and then using some others I have to do some out crossing. I am not doing it to change the Cornish breed in any way from the standard, but to come up with a pure white Mostly Cornish Breeder to then out cross with some fast growing white rocks and I have. My goal is I am playing with trying to establish a breed that will closely resemble the best features we like in a meat bird with none of the down sides, The main goal is make the breed self sustainble and breed true future generations on their own. It is a lofty goal indeed but I have plenty of time LOL. I am also working on doing some crazy experiments with breeding some Cornish X meat birds and I have several chicks on the ground from them and more in the incubator, I raised them to a special regimine so they would get to laying and breeding age without keeling over from their common phsyical problems. So Steve yes I have several breeding projects going on but all are to develop this new breed and create a true sustainable meat bird that will lay and be processed in a reasonable amount of time and that the bird be an active normal bird that can forage and run flocks, but just still be a big huge bruiser LOL.

AL

 

[dancingbear]

Quote:
I've noticed that same thing, and I have often wondered why on earth the APA's SOP would insist on preserving traits that decrease fertility and survivability. It seems to me the goals of breeding should include improvement of the health and survivability of the breed, not to make them almost impossible to breed! The short legs in Cornish are one good example, the tufts in Araucanas, (linked to a lethal gene) are another. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[SteveH]

Quote:
I've noticed that same thing, and I have often wondered why on earth the APA's SOP would insist on preserving traits that decrease fertility and survivability. It seems to me the goals of breeding should include improvement of the health and survivability of the breed, not to make them almost impossible to breed! The short legs in Cornish are one good example, the tufts in Araucanas, (linked to a lethal gene) are another. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Sticking to the subject of WLRC , I don't believe its the SOP at fault ; IMO its interpretation of the SOP and general demand for the most outrageous extreems . Its comparable to the AKC English Bulldog . Once an extreeme athlete ; now incapable of live breeding , natural birth , and even needs coddling just to survive as a pet if show quality . People fed up with this started the Olde English Bulldogge breed , and buyer demand has brought it too back to the same problems to a degree .

 

[al6517]

Quote:
I've noticed that same thing, and I have often wondered why on earth the APA's SOP would insist on preserving traits that decrease fertility and survivability. It seems to me the goals of breeding should include improvement of the health and survivability of the breed, not to make them almost impossible to breed! The short legs in Cornish are one good example, the tufts in Araucanas, (linked to a lethal gene) are another. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Sticking to the subject of WLRC , I don't believe its the SOP at fault ; IMO its interpretation of the SOP and general demand for the most outrageous extreems . Its comparable to the AKC English Bulldog . Once an extreeme athlete ; now incapable of live breeding , natural birth , and even needs coddling just to survive as a pet if show quality . People fed up with this started the Olde English Bulldogge breed , and buyer demand has brought it too back to the same problems to a degree .

I agree with both of you guy's to a degree, when the interpretation of the APA standard is left up the breeder/show person/judges you will always....... I say again always.......... have some problems with what people think is the proper standard but if the judges don't reward these traits they go by the wayside when they do reward a certain type, that trait is bred more. so it is a collabrative effort by all involved. I do agree that if a trait is bred for the show ring that is determental to the birds productive health then that trait should be discouraged, now in the same breath you may have people in those circles who do not believe that a short leg is causing this and have the ear of some prominant judges hence the saga continues. I have spoken at length to many well respected Cornish breeders throughout the country and many of them agree and are experiencing the same problems, but they are winning in the show ring and the judges are still condoning this bad breeding trait so they will continue to breed to what is winning. there is a saying in the show ring that you never breed for what is winning now you breed for what will win in 5 years. I have seen this same behavior in both the dog and Horse show circles and they almost always end up changing and in some cases ruining the breed. only die hard show folks and judges will disagree.

AL