Red Laced Cornish X and project talk (pics p. 8)

[Cedarknob]

I feel quite a bit like chickened concerning all the great pictures and no one offering eggs or birds. I made a public request not too long ago and received only one response. Thoughtful contact information was provided and I should be able to find what I am looking for but people that want to dedicate themselves to this breed REALLY need help obtaining viable stock or they will end up in my boat, hatchery stock, lost time and effort, digging and scrapping for any bit of information that can be found on where to find these marvelous birds.

NOW on the other hand, I completely understand that amount of work Katy has put into her project and everything Al and Pepper have been doing to achieve their goals and the necessary stringency in culling and inability to release stock or eggs and jeopardize their own work. I have my own turkey project going and it has been two years now that I have not been able to share with anyone because of my need to hatch and cull to my standards with everything available.

My real belief is there just isn't enough people doing cornish and even less people doing them right.... so, for those of us without stock, kick and scream and bite and claw until you can get your hands on some viable stock. For those of you with these beauties, when possible, please be merciful and be willing to pass on all your hard work to people who really care.

*stepping down from soap box and hiding it underneath the coop*

I know how frustrating it can be trying to find your first birds. I'm certainly not passing on my stock out of a sense of mercy, I do so when it seems the right thing to do; and my experience is that my own soap box lectures never seem to have the effect of changing people's ideals of what's right for them. Perhaps.that is because what is right for me is not right for others As far as "doing them right"; breeding a line, "right" is again in the mind of every breeder. and debates over what is right looks to have torn the Cornish breeders apart to the point that the International Cornish Breeders has shrunk to what appears to be a small group of individuals bickering about show standards. I'm too easily drawn into such debates, a personal defect of character that has caused me much suffering. LOL

 

[ericsplls]

I can't remember who it was but I remember a post from a breeder saying how many people he had sold stock too over the course of 25 years. It was alot and he tried to contact someone wh still had his stock and couldn't find but one or two that had them for more than a couple years. That makes it a little easier to understand why someone wouldn't share stock they were working on for years. At the same time the worst thing for a breed is not enough people raising them to maintain genetic diversity and an interest in the breed.

 

[chickened]

I raise hogs also and I was amazed at how many breeds have went extinct. My father had some of the best gamecocks on the west coast when I was a kid and I would love to have them now.

I can't remember who it was but I remember a post from a breeder saying how many people he had sold stock too over the course of 25 years. It was alot and he tried to contact someone wh still had his stock and couldn't find but one or two that had them for more than a couple years. That makes it a little easier to understand why someone wouldn't share stock they were working on for years. At the same time the worst thing for a breed is not enough people raising them to maintain genetic diversity and an interest in the breed.

 

[kfacres]

I can relate to everything mentioned on the last 3 pages- and see both sides of the arguement.

I will say, that I have one of the most successful breeding sheep operations in my breed- in the country. In a very short period of time- I went from a nobody- to raising and selling state and national champions= not to mention the selling of breeding stock into 18 states and Canada. We had several other species of livestock as well- and even though our small Shorthorn herd is never going to be a national competitor- I fell we can crank out a good or better than good one every year. Matter of fact, we have a just weaned heifer calf right now=- that I think can just about compete with anyone.

Now, with that said, I was once told that if you follow the perception of sell the best, keep the rest, you will be out of the business in 3 years. I have seen it happen in front of my very eyes in both the cattle and sheep breeding and showing worlds...

To go one step further- I have also always been told by my mentors- that every once in a while- you have to part with a good one. She'll bring a ton of money- and the elite's will buy her-- Take that opportunity for her to produce your next herd sire from their mating of her to their elite: That's a true breeding plan.

I've only been involved with these Cornish birds for a very short time- but it took me nearly 2 years to locate my original ones. I promised myself that I would assist as many people as I can- in order to get started. So far this spring, I have shipped hatching eggs to 5 states- and have a huge list left of people wanting the eggs, I've been keeping roughly half the eggs for myself- and selling the other half to pay the feed bill. If current long term Cornish breeders refuse to sell to me for 'letting their genetics out': then so be it= I could care less- and in all reality I would have never gotten their eggs in the first place.

Another thing that I view as being perfectly rediculous- the number of people who refuse to sell one, single lonely cockerel bird to someone wanting to start a hobby project of sustainable meat birds- o lordy- I just said the devil's word to a Cornish breeder. Sure you have the excuse that you use those birds to fill your freezer-- but is ONE bird going to make a difference? I'd hate to think that your best- non keeper bird- would be of poorer or lesser quality than any non Cornish, or any hatchery sourced Cornish bird.

I see the past Cornish breeders to blame for this- it's a mentality handicap- secret handshake- forever problem that will never go away. They wanted birds built like this- huge breasts- short stocky legs-- why on earth do you think you can't hatch out chicks__ YOU SELECTED BIRDS TO BREED WITH THAT WERE PHYSICALLY unable to successfully mate+_ DUH! If you would select for- or heaven's to betsy change the standard to a reproducable bird-- you'd be able to hatch out more chicks- which in term would do several things:

Give you a broader base to select the upper end keepers from- 1% of a 100 is far less than 1% of a 1000,
Give you more 'butcherable' freezer birds
and Give you an opportunity to sell something to help pay the feed bill... seriously these cornish birds eat as much as our turkeys.

 

[chickened]

I know what you mean and I agree with you. My ship came in so to speak on obtaining good quality birds and I have maxed out their breeding potential and am currently looking for some new blood but I refuse to pay 600.00 for a trio of culls. I will find a fair individual with good stock that will see what I am doing for it's true value and help me out and I will be willing to pay a fair price. What good is giving if you give someone your crap?

 

[kfacres]

It depends on quite a few variables: not trying to speak for anyone- but I think some good can come from someone else's culls.

When I got started in the Oxfords- I went to the 'elite' breeders and no they didn't sell me their best-- but more like their culls. What they considered 'culls', I considedered my most elite breeding stock prospects.

As I advanced my genetics and quality- eventually I passed most of these people up with a whole flock buyout that I did in 2007. At this point in time- I feel that even their best ones- would be cull caliber at my place.

IMO: as a breeder- there is a fine line b/w selling culls- and genetic gems for others. You don't want to constantely be selling crappers--- but then again like I eluded to above: you can't sell the best- keep the rest either. Some years I feel I have teedered that bubble- others I feel like I'm not even close to it.

I know what you mean and I agree with you. My ship came in so to speak on obtaining good quality birds and I have maxed out their breeding potential and am currently looking for some new blood but I refuse to pay 600.00 for a trio of culls. I will find a fair individual with good stock that will see what I am doing for it's true value and help me out and I will be willing to pay a fair price. What good is giving if you give someone your crap?

 

[Cedarknob]

I can relate to everything mentioned on the last 3 pages- and see both sides of the arguement.

I will say, that I have one of the most successful breeding sheep operations in my breed- in the country. In a very short period of time- I went from a nobody- to raising and selling state and national champions= not to mention the selling of breeding stock into 18 states and Canada. We had several other species of livestock as well- and even though our small Shorthorn herd is never going to be a national competitor- I fell we can crank out a good or better than good one every year. Matter of fact, we have a just weaned heifer calf right now=- that I think can just about compete with anyone.

Now, with that said, I was once told that if you follow the perception of sell the best, keep the rest, you will be out of the business in 3 years. I have seen it happen in front of my very eyes in both the cattle and sheep breeding and showing worlds...

To go one step further- I have also always been told by my mentors- that every once in a while- you have to part with a good one. She'll bring a ton of money- and the elite's will buy her-- Take that opportunity for her to produce your next herd sire from their mating of her to their elite: That's a true breeding plan.

I've only been involved with these Cornish birds for a very short time- but it took me nearly 2 years to locate my original ones. I promised myself that I would assist as many people as I can- in order to get started. So far this spring, I have shipped hatching eggs to 5 states- and have a huge list left of people wanting the eggs, I've been keeping roughly half the eggs for myself- and selling the other half to pay the feed bill. If current long term Cornish breeders refuse to sell to me for 'letting their genetics out': then so be it= I could care less- and in all reality I would have never gotten their eggs in the first place.

Another thing that I view as being perfectly rediculous- the number of people who refuse to sell one, single lonely cockerel bird to someone wanting to start a hobby project of sustainable meat birds- o lordy- I just said the devil's word to a Cornish breeder. Sure you have the excuse that you use those birds to fill your freezer-- but is ONE bird going to make a difference? I'd hate to think that your best- non keeper bird- would be of poorer or lesser quality than any non Cornish, or any hatchery sourced Cornish bird.

I see the past Cornish breeders to blame for this- it's a mentality handicap- secret handshake- forever problem that will never go away. They wanted birds built like this- huge breasts- short stocky legs-- why on earth do you think you can't hatch out chicks__ YOU SELECTED BIRDS TO BREED WITH THAT WERE PHYSICALLY unable to successfully mate+_ DUH! If you would select for- or heaven's to betsy change the standard to a reproducable bird-- you'd be able to hatch out more chicks- which in term would do several things:

Give you a broader base to select the upper end keepers from- 1% of a 100 is far less than 1% of a 1000,
Give you more 'butcherable' freezer birds
and Give you an opportunity to sell something to help pay the feed bill... seriously these cornish birds eat as much as our turkeys.

I may not have followed the past posts correctly, so correct me if I'm wrong. Someone sold you some Cornish pullets bred from hatchery hens under a breeder quality cockerel? He gave you a nice dark Cornish cockerel, bred towards the SOP, that you are using to breed them with?
Now you are selling eggs from those pullets at a price that is probably higher than what eating eggs would sell for, correct? [Nothing wrong with that IMO, we all need to pay bills.] Do you A.I.? If not, and anyone is hatching chicks from your eggs, he breeds naturally, even on hens more narrow bodied than him. Now you are blasting the previous breeders for ruining the breed of the cockerel you are using, and also not selling you birds to breed with?

I want to add that I'm not wanting to start an argument, just trying to understand your logic, so please do not be offended by my questions.

 

[kfacres]

Someone sold you some Cornish pullets bred from hatchery hens under a breeder quality cockerel? He gave you a nice dark Cornish cockerel, bred towards the SOP, that you are using to breed them with?
Yes, but like myself- he's a newly established breeder-- that started with the same goals of which I did- of which I do not think he was breeding towards the SOP- he can correct me if wrong. Since, he's completely changed his views on the birds- and goals with them. and I'm sure he's beyond the selling for a cheap price/ gifting stage. I will say the fertility of the Dark Cockerel- is about half that of the other cock birds and their hens- and that is something I am aiming to correct- or quit using.

Now you are selling eggs from those pullets at a price that is probably higher than what eating eggs would sell for, correct? [Nothing wrong with that IMO, we all need to pay bills.] yes selling eggs, but eating most of them.

Do you A.I.? If not, and anyone is hatching chicks from your eggs, he breeds naturally, even on hens more narrow bodied than him. NO AI- I think that's rediculous... if the strain cannot reproduce naturally- survival of the fittest says do away with it. The people who've bought some eggs from us have good hatching rates.

Now you are blasting the previous breeders for ruining the breed of the cockerel you are using, and also not selling you birds to breed with? Yes, b/c one lonely, beginning breeder helped get me started- has nothing to do with the rest of the world. They also struggled to get started- and still do currently. You don't know the whole story behind where he got his start from though. He got his birds from another breeder who considered them crappers and let them free range. They are also a different style of bird- by being longer legged.

I am not blasting anyone for not selling me birds to use: I'm more so discussing their lack of desire to sell to anyone. I could care less if they sell to me or not, as I've contacted plenty of people who've agreed to sell to me- but I decided I didn't want their birds. I am content with what I have- and in all honestly have exactly what I want. Some average built- better laying than average hens- to cover them with a truer cock bird- but the whole realm is I want to make the BLR color variety- and I could care less about the SOP or showing. I think it's a domino effect of which their selections have started the downcline of the breed< genetically select for poor fertility< then get poor fertility< then get less chicks.

I don't agree with their lack of desire to sell one bird to someone who wants to experiement. I myself do not care about making birds to eat, I don't care about selling eggs to hatch, I don't care about selling breeding stock- I have Cornish birds b/c I think they look cool- and want the eggs from them to eat.

You have blown my words completely out of porportion- and have read the wrong bulletted points. It's almost impossible to perceive tone and connotation online in words alone.

Some times, it's all about supply and demand. If people demand something- you find a way to supply it- you don't turn them away. It's about dollars and sense (puposely spelled it that way). You also have to be a good marketer.

When I started in the Cornish birds- I wanted to make the best SOP Cornish I could- I had plans to hatch out every egg I could- keep every young bird I could- and build from there.

As I've had them for a longer time period now: I'm come to the realization they might not be all they are cracked up to be. They took forever to mature, and eat like horses- and will never be able to afford my intial goals. Because I have so much invested in them- and do not want to let my starter down-- I have decided to stick it out and make the best of it. I'm not complaining- just stating that goals and thoughts evolve. As I'm in this stage of life where money is tight- and between living due to work- I've reached the realization that those birds need to be able to pay for themselves, and sideline the little hobby of wanting tons of them. Also as I've had them longer- I've gotten more involved with researching them and coming to the realization of why they are, and for what reasons they will continue to be. I've changed my mind about them- in which I've came to the conclusion they are an important aspect of chicken farming- and need to be perserved, of which will never happen holding onto them.

I imagine I have upset my original Cornish friend and mentor: but it wasn't purposely- like I said above- quite often online someone reads and believes the opposite end of sentences- instead of the point needing bulletted. I had originally thought a partnership might arise- but at this point in time I see that will never happen. I think that from our original conversations- both parties have evolved to what we are today-- one sees more towards the line of the Cornish people and their mentality- and one sees more towards the line of still being an outsider wanting in... I don't think I've been accepted yet- and imagine I never will be.

 

[galanie]

I'm not sure how we can preserve a breed if we don't breed them all to the same standard.

That said, I understand where kfacres is coming from. If the only birds winning at shows are not able to reproduce normally then that does make one think that there is something not quite right about the standard. But we do need standards, otherwise we'll have so many different variations that they can't really all be called the same breed.

I have read that the short leg gene causes cornish to suffer lower hatch rates. Personally, other than looks, I'm unsure why they have to be so short legged. I suppose because "that's the standard." Though the standard does say thighs and legs "medium" and shanks "moderately short." The wide stance is blamed for lack of natural breeding ability. Again, I guess they are bred that way because "that's the standard." Though the standard says "very broad" it doesn't say "so wide they can't breed." It also says it is a DQ for them to have a defect keeping them from moving normally. So I guess you can read the standard how you wish, but what wins at shows is generally how we interpret the standard.

It's a quandry if you think of it that way. On the one hand, there has to be a standard. On the other, the standard looks to be impractical for a bird that is supposed to be useful. Or maybe they're going the way of the UK Orpingtons, where "style" is affecting what breeders are coming out with to the point they look like another breed. Yes, I said it. Show winning UK Orps look like Cochins. They really do. In the case of show birds in the UK, they aren't even being bred to standard. The imports from there to the USA I see though do seem to be. I'm not saying that cornish look like any other breed, only that there does seem to be a bit of extremism going on.

We're all free to do whatever we want with our birds. I tend to agree with both camps, if that's possible. My only problem with the whole thing is, how can you claim to be preserving a breed when you aren't breeding to the same standard as everyone else?

 

[chickened]

I agree just go to any show and see how many cornish you see or if you want an even smaller number see how many breeders are there. The writing is on the wall unless these breeders start helping out those that want to keep them going.

I agree about the shows determining the standard. Cornish that win are short legged usually and that is not what is in the standard or the illistrations. My strain of DC the hens legs thicken at about 2 years old and they look to have thin legs as pullets. The cocks legs are thick at 6 months.

I'm not sure how we can preserve a breed if we don't breed them all to the same standard.
That said, I understand where kfacres is coming from. If the only birds winning at shows are not able to reproduce normally then that does make one think that there is something not quite right about the standard. But we do need standards, otherwise we'll have so many different variations that they can't really all be called the same breed.
I have read that the short leg gene causes cornish to suffer lower hatch rates. Personally, other than looks, I'm unsure why they have to be so short legged. I suppose because "that's the standard." Though the standard does say thighs and legs "medium" and shanks "moderately short." The wide stance is blamed for lack of natural breeding ability. Again, I guess they are bred that way because "that's the standard." Though the standard says "very broad" it doesn't say "so wide they can't breed." It also says it is a DQ for them to have a defect keeping them from moving normally. So I guess you can read the standard how you wish, but what wins at shows is generally how we interpret the standard.
It's a quandry if you think of it that way. On the one hand, there has to be a standard. On the other, the standard looks to be impractical for a bird that is supposed to be useful. Or maybe they're going the way of the UK Orpingtons, where "style" is affecting what breeders are coming out with to the point they look like another breed. Yes, I said it. Show winning UK Orps look like Cochins. They really do. In the case of show birds in the UK, they aren't even being bred to standard. The imports from there to the USA I see though do seem to be. I'm not saying that cornish look like any other breed, only that there does seem to be a bit of extremism going on.
We're all free to do whatever we want with our birds. I tend to agree with both camps, if that's possible. My only problem with the whole thing is, how can you claim to be preserving a breed when you aren't breeding to the same standard as everyone else?