Red vs Mahogany vs Copper

[ZooAtHome]

I'm fairly new to the chicken world and haven't done any breeding yet, but I've been reading up on breed descriptions and standards of perfection. A few times now, I've come across phrases like "true red, not mahogany" or "no mahogany leakage" or "lustrous deep copper, no mahogany". Thing is, I have no idea what distinguishes a color as red, mahogany or copper.

Does anyone have any pictures they can share that are good examples of these colors? Just to help a newbie understand what the differences are. I'm finding chicken genetics fascinating, but translating words into colors in my brain is proving challenging and Google hasn't been very helpful with that. I could really use some visual input on this one.

Thanks in advance!

 

[nicalandia]

Red on the Left, gold on the right



Mahogany

Copper(only used by Maran breeders as no other breed mentions it)

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Nicalania provided example photos above. Also was mentioned to look up photos of Copper Marans as that is the color. A good example of red vs. mahogany would be to look up hatchery Rhode Island Reds or Production Reds then look up breeder quality Rhode Island Reds. The breeder quality birds are mahogany, hatchery stock is red.

 

[CindyinSD]

I didn't name a specific breed because I've been reading about several and trying to get a handle on what is meant by various patterns and colors in general. That said, I have a pair of Black Copper Marans which recently started showing their "copper" feathers, thus spurring the specific question regarding red vs mahogany vs copper, so I guess starting there is as good a place as any.

I'm really just trying to put these colors in context when it comes to chickens. "Red" can mean different colors depending on where it is used. For example, "red" with cats is really more of an orange, yet "red" in dogs is more of a reddish-brown, or what I would consider "mahogany." As an artist, I can tell you that my red pencils and paints are not at all the same as any of the "reds" we describe in animals. To further confuse matters, when it comes to chickens, a "red" comb and a "red" feather are not at all the same color. Since I am brand new to chickens, I don't yet know what "red" means when it comes to poultry.

My reading thus far has led me to conclude that, when it comes to chickens, there is a discernible difference between red, mahogany and copper, especially given that, in some cases, these color variations are used to describe whether or not the bird conforms to the SOP. However, nothing I've read to date actually explains the difference between red vs mahogany vs copper, the articles just assume you already know, which I don't. Thus, I'm just trying to figure out what that difference is. Reading the words without any visual examples makes it difficult to quantify them, so I am in search of visual examples to aid my understanding. Honestly, I thought this would be a simple question and that learning to differentiate them was just a matter of comparing enough birds with those colors pointed out. I figured a good way to do this was to ask people to share pictures of their red, mahogany and copper chickens so I could actually see the colors.

If I were painting the copper feathers on my Marans, I would reach for quinacridone rust (M Graham watercolors).

I have some young Buckeyes, which are alternately described in the SOP as deep rich velvety red or mahogany. Looking at the color swatches online, I would choose perylene maroon (same brand—which is my favorite) as closest to the photos on the American Buckeye association’s webpage, particularly that of the cock’s neck and saddle plumage.

Red with reference to combs of fertile adults, imo, is a neutral red, neither more blue nor more yellow. I use napthol red.

Ultimately the colors are always going to be subjective to a great degree. Just as the judges in an art show will have differing opinions as to the qualities of the works they’re assessing, so judges in a poultry show will unavoidably mix in some of their own opinion in judging color. Even if you know the exact wavelength of the color in question, that color will vary depending on the light in which we see it and the light cast on it by other nearby colored masses. Color is SUCH a fascinating subject—impossible to pin down and constantly changing based on environment and individual perception. With regard to describing it, all we can do is our best.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

As one who is neither a breeder nor an artist, but who remembers vividly the flap about whether "the dress" was blue and black or white and gold, depending on your computer/ phone/ tablet settings and the lighting in the room, may I offer a suggestion? Perhaps the best way to learn what is meant by these terms is a little "investigative research." Go to a bird show. A chicken show, specifically. Put eyeballs on, and take lots of pictures. And have lots of fun!

 

[MROO]

As an artist, I can tell you that my red pencils and paints are not at all the same as any of the "reds" we describe in animals.

Hi! And welcome aboard. You ask a very good question, but unfortunately, I don't think anyone can answer it the way you are hoping. The key phrase, "As an artist," turned on the proverbial light-bulb.

In most Art, beauty and color are interpretive, but most colors start out uniform. An artist can buy a tube of "Saffron Yellow" and expect it to match the tube he/she has at home. A PrismaColor #931 "Dark Purple" pencil will be the same color no matter where or when you purchase it.

Unfortunately, chicken colors don't work the same way. They don't come with PrismaColor numbers (a dog-gone shame, in my humble opinion!) so the principle doesn't apply to them. If I had to compare them to art projects, I'd have to say that chicken colors are more akin to "dye lots." In most breeds, each hatch (or batch, if you will) should be similar in coloration - that's where the Standard of Perfection, or SOP, comes in. Even that isn't always precise. Just like in dye-lots and paint mixing, colors can be slightly off between batches. And like in dyeing textiles (or firing glazes,) colors can often surprise you. Sometimes you'll get an "ombre" batch ... where each chick is a slightly different color than the others, despite having the same (or very similar) parents. Occasionally, you'll get a throwback that comes off really different from the others, and sometimes they're all so close you can't tell them apart. That's part of the beauty ... and the fun ... of having chickens!

If you decide to show, you'll likely find that even the colors listed in the SOP can be interpreted differently, almost subjectively, by different judges. What one judge sees as a rich mahogany, another may see as "too red-brown." My own birds are mostly Nankin bantams. The hens are supposed to be a "chestnut" color. My girls vary from a golden auburn to a dark palomino coloring - and different judges place them flip-flopped, according to their own interpretation of "chestnut." Have you ever seen two random chestnut horses exactly the same shade? Me neither. It's kinda like that ...

So, I guess what I'm saying is don't stress too much about pinning down a certain color to a certain name. Think of it as having the universal computer-screen caveat, "Colors may appear slightly different due to light and computer hardware differences."

Once you've looked around a bit, you'll get a better feel for what's the "right" color for your birds ... unless you end up with Easter Eggers or Swedish Flowers ... then all bets are off and every hatch is like Christmas ... or maybe more like a bear wandered through your painting supplies ... and that's all good, too!

Sorry this is so long ... I didn't start out to write a pamphlet. It just kinda "happened." I hope it helps ...
And again, welcome to BYC ... it's good to have you here!

 

[ZooAtHome]

Hi! And welcome aboard. You ask a very good question, but unfortunately, I don't think anyone can answer it the way you are hoping. The key phrase, "As an artist," turned on the proverbial light-bulb.

In most Art, beauty and color are interpretive, but most colors start out uniform. An artist can buy a tube of "Saffron Yellow" and expect it to match the tube he/she has at home. A PrismaColor #931 "Dark Purple" pencil will be the same color no matter where or when you purchase it.

Unfortunately, chicken colors don't work the same way. They don't come with PrismaColor numbers (a dog-gone shame, in my humble opinion!) so the principle doesn't apply to them. If I had to compare them to art projects, I'd have to say that chicken colors are more akin to "dye lots." In most breeds, each hatch (or batch, if you will) should be similar in coloration - that's where the Standard of Perfection, or SOP, comes in. Even that isn't always precise. Just like in dye-lots and paint mixing, colors can be slightly off between batches. And like in dyeing textiles (or firing glazes,) colors can often surprise you. Sometimes you'll get an "ombre" batch ... where each chick is a slightly different color than the others, despite having the same (or very similar) parents. Occasionally, you'll get a throwback that comes off really different from the others, and sometimes they're all so close you can't tell them apart. That's part of the beauty ... and the fun ... of having chickens!

If you decide to show, you'll likely find that even the colors listed in the SOP can be interpreted differently, almost subjectively, by different judges. What one judge sees as a rich mahogany, another may see as "too red-brown." My own birds are mostly Nankin bantams. The hens are supposed to be a "chestnut" color. My girls vary from a golden auburn to a dark palomino coloring - and different judges place them flip-flopped, according to their own interpretation of "chestnut." Have you ever seen two random chestnut horses exactly the same shade? Me neither. It's kinda like that ...

So, I guess what I'm saying is don't stress too much about pinning down a certain color to a certain name. Think of it as having the universal computer-screen caveat, "Colors may appear slightly different due to light and computer hardware differences."

Once you've looked around a bit, you'll get a better feel for what's the "right" color for your birds ... unless you end up with Easter Eggers or Swedish Flowers ... then all bets are off and every hatch is like Christmas ... or maybe more like a bear wandered through your painting supplies ... and that's all good, too!

Sorry this is so long ... I didn't start out to write a pamphlet. It just kinda "happened." I hope it helps ...
And again, welcome to BYC ... it's good to have you here!

All of that makes a lot of sense. I especially like the dye-lot analogy. It resonates with my color-tuned brain. Honestly, I figured it was something like that when I asked the original question. My problem was I had no starting point for referencing these colors when it comes to chickens. For instance, is mahogany a darker red or a browner red? (Thanks to shared pictures, I now feel it is a little bit of both. Now, watch ... someone will pop in and tell me that's wrong, lol.)

Since most of my preferred subjects are from nature, I completely understand that all critters come in a range of colors, though they are usually close enough to recognize them as being the same species or breed. Occasionally, you even get one that falls well outside the norm. So, I wasn't expecting a Prismacolor definition (though I agree, that would be awesome and would make thing so much simpler ). But when a SOP says something like "deep red, not mahogany," it seems like someone, somewhere has drawn a line. I just wanted to get a feel for where that line was. I now understand that the line moves, depending on who is doing the looking.

I've run into a similar quandary with the terms "buff" and "wheaten." There is obviously a difference, otherwise there would be no need for two different terms; however, I'm still pretty hazy on what that difference is.

I do suspect that more time and experience will help me fine-tune my own subjective interpretation of the various chicken colors. At the time of my original post, though, I kept coming across references to red vs mahogany without any pictures to help me understand what they were actually describing, which left me wanting clarification.

For now, this is all an exercise in semantics for me anyway, as my current flock is a bunch of hatchery quality youngsters, most of which are mixed breeds. They exhibit a variety of colors, patterns and sizes and I love them all just as they are ... no matter what color you call them. Seeing that variety got me curious about all the OTHER types of chickens that are out there and what makes one chicken this type as opposed to that type and well, madness ensued. Such is my life, lol, but it's all good.

Thanks so much for you input. BTW, I love long posts ... as you can probably tell.

 

[ZooAtHome]

I understand the reasons you would not post your artwork here, but I sure wish we could see it!

To be honest, it never occurred to me as I haven't drawn or painted many chickens ... yet. Just a couple of quick sketches of them so far. I really just dabble and I don't spend nearly as much time on it as I would like. So many other interests in life, my days always seem so full. And for most of the spring, my studio was a chicken brooder. Still cleaning up the dust from that fiasco. Before that, it was a NICU for a trio of sick kittens.

Maybe I'll start an art thread in the hobbies section. Not today though. Today, I am making pickles.

 

[nicalandia]

Sex link gold(s+)+ Mahogany(Mh/Mh) + Autosomal red(Ap/Ap) + unknown red enhancers can make a bird look so dark they would appear to be nearly black.

For example Spangled OEGB(no they not genetically spangled but recessive mottling instead) are wildtype duckwing in phenotype with all possible red enhancers one could find.

 

[ZooAtHome]

If I were painting the copper feathers on my Marans, I would reach for quinacridone rust (M Graham watercolors).

I have some young Buckeyes, which are alternately described in the SOP as deep rich velvety red or mahogany. Looking at the color swatches online, I would choose perylene maroon (same brand—which is my favorite) as closest to the photos on the American Buckeye association’s webpage, particularly that of the cock’s neck and saddle plumage.

Red with reference to combs of fertile adults, imo, is a neutral red, neither more blue nor more yellow. I use napthol red.

Ultimately the colors are always going to be subjective to a great degree. Just as the judges in an art show will have differing opinions as to the qualities of the works they’re assessing, so judges in a poultry show will unavoidably mix in some of their own opinion in judging color. Even if you know the exact wavelength of the color in question, that color will vary depending on the light in which we see it and the light cast on it by other nearby colored masses. Color is SUCH a fascinating subject—impossible to pin down and constantly changing based on environment and individual perception. With regard to describing it, all we can do is our best.

Someone else who speaks color. Awesome!

Thank you. This I understand.