Rhode Island Red yes or no?

[junebuggena]

It was said that hatcheries crossed Rhode Island Reds with Leghorns, but no one has ever shown proof of this. Hatcheries do occasionally add some Leghorn blood into their lines to boost production levels. Evidence of this can be seen in the pinched tail sets and lighter build of hatchery birds. People continue to say that hatchery birds are not pure, and also show no proof that birds that meet the standard are pure. From a showing perspective, it doesn't matter if the bird is 'pure' or not, as long as it meets the standard. Where does it say that if a bird does not meet the breed standards, it is not considered that breed? This is a link to the APA breed acceptance process http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/ARTI...Laws Adding Breeds-Varieties to Standard.pdf Also, check out this article http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/Poul...to the Standard. A Common Sense Approach.pdf And this one http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/Poultry Articles/What is Purebred Poultry.pdf If that is the case, are there any Rhode Island Reds in existence? Of course there are Rhode Island Reds in existence, but you're not going to get them from most hatcheries. You said breed standards serve to show what a breed is supposed to look like, but that does not mean every bird of that breed looks like that. Every bird of a specific breed should at least come close to the standard. Each breed has specific traits that are automatic disqualifications, like an Orpington with yellow skin is not an Orpington, or a Silkie with smooth feathers. Even within a flock no two birds are identical. If you have a bunch of different breeds in the flock, then sure. If you've gotten well bred birds, all of the same breed, it will be very difficult to tell them apart. If the standard has not changed much since 1910, tell me what changes have been made. Why do you consider these changes minor? Fred's and Matt's birds would not have placed in 1910. For these questions, I refer you to this thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/407294/the-heritage-rhode-island-red-site/30

 

[deafguy2]

Look at this photo a true breed Rhode Island Red. It's even more digusting called " Production Reds "




.

 

[Matt1616]

There are visual breed standards for RIR (as well as other breeds) simply because people wanted them.  They are/were intended to keep breeds distinct, and also to give something to strive for when showing.  When the APA first started writing standards for breeds, there was little understanding of genetics.  The breed standard for Rhode Island Red has changed over the years, as people have changed what they want them to look like.  When the breed standard changed, did that mean that the birds that were Rhode Island Reds by the old standard were no longer Rhode Island Reds? 

p

In the early days of the Rhode Island Red Club they held yearly contests to see who had the most productive layers. They would use trap nests and keep up with individual laying records and there would be prizes and awards for whoever had the most productive layers. It is well known within club history that do to the competitive nature of the contest and the benefits of winning it that some people started crossing in Leghorns to increase the laying ability of their strain of Reds. As time moves on you had two distinctly different types of reds...the birds that were dark and big as per the standard and the lighter colored, smaller high egg production Reds. There became turmoil within the club about about accepting the production birds because they were not what was originally intended for the breed but rather a result of the competition for the egg laying contests. There was finally a decision made to go with the darker colored, larger, dual purpose birds as that is what their original intent was. This caused some portion of the membership to fall off but the club felt like it was the right thing to do.

It has been my understanding for many years that hatcheries have used the practice of crossing in leghorns to every traditional breed to increase the egg laying abilities to accommodate the demand for backyard layers. Most people that have a few chickens in their backyard are primarily interested in having eggs year around and these traditional breeds were not capable of that as they have a natural process of laying heavily in the spring, not laying in the summer, laying heavily in the fall and not laying in the winter. Leghorns did not have this fault therefore they were the obvious choice to cross in to get the desired result. From the hatcheries perspective...as long as the birds somewhat resembles the breed that they claim them to be than that is what they are. If you will look at almost every breed of hatchery birds you will see that the body types are almost identical...the only difference in them is the color patterns. No, I don't have a written letter from all of the hatcheries stating that this is exactly how this was done but it is the accepted reasoning among serious poultry breeders.

Having said all that...for the people that just want a few layers out in their backyard to have a consistent supply of eggs for the table these birds are perfect. They will lay many eggs and provide enjoyment for those that have them.

As far as pedigrees, chickens do not have a documented pedigree system that is overseen by a governing body but the line of Rhode Island Reds that I keep are suppose to be pure for over 100 years. I can't verify it for the whole 100 years but I can verify it for about 40 of them and before that there were only 2 other people that had the line including the originator. So, there are some very pure lines of chickens out there but they are exceedingly rare.


I did not come on this thread to put down hatchery birds as I don't see them in that way. They serve a very practical purpose for the vast majority of the poultry community. The original poster asked a question and as the the current President of the Rhode Island Red Club of America I felt like he needed a clarification of the different choices of Rhode Island Reds in existence rather than just a yes or no answer. Sometimes yes or no doesn't fully answer a question.


Matt

 

[gojira]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gojira

It was said that hatcheries crossed Rhode Island Reds with Leghorns, but no one has ever shown proof of this. Hatcheries do occasionally add some Leghorn blood into their lines to boost production levels. Evidence of this can be seen in the pinched tail sets and lighter build of hatchery birds. People continue to say that hatchery birds are not pure, and also show no proof that birds that meet the standard are pure. From a showing perspective, it doesn't matter if the bird is 'pure' or not, as long as it meets the standard. Where does it say that if a bird does not meet the breed standards, it is not considered that breed? This is a link to the APA breed acceptance process http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/ARTICLE%206%20-%20Sec.%202%20of%20By-Laws%20%20Adding%20Breeds-Varieties%20to%20Standard.pdf Also, check out this article http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/Poultry%20Articles/Breeding%20to%20the%20Standard.%20%20A%20Common%20Sense%20Approach.pdf And this one http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/Poultry%20Articles/What%20is%20Purebred%20Poultry.pdf If that is the case, are there any Rhode Island Reds in existence? Of course there are Rhode Island Reds in existence, but you're not going to get them from most hatcheries. You said breed standards serve to show what a breed is supposed to look like, but that does not mean every bird of that breed looks like that. Every bird of a specific breed should at least come close to the standard. Each breed has specific traits that are automatic disqualifications, like an Orpington with yellow skin is not an Orpington, or a Silkie with smooth feathers. Even within a flock no two birds are identical. If you have a bunch of different breeds in the flock, then sure. If you've gotten well bred birds, all of the same breed, it will be very difficult to tell them apart. If the standard has not changed much since 1910, tell me what changes have been made. Why do you consider these changes minor? Fred's and Matt's birds would not have placed in 1910. For these questions, I refer you to this thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/407294/the-heritage-rhode-island-red-site/30

Again, show me proof that hatcheries do add Leghorn into other breeds. You can get pinched tails and lighter builds without adding Leghorn. Neither of those links say that a bird has to MEET the standard to be that breed. If a bird has to MEET that standard, very few birds do, so very few people, if any, have Rhode Island Reds. You then changed and said birds of a breed should come close to the standard. There is a difference between meeting standard, and coming close. So if birds differ slightly in color, tail angle, eye color, etc., they are different breeds? The standard is very specific. It lists one tail angle, so if the tail angle is slightly different, a bird does not MEET the standard. It might come close, but that is not the same as meeting it. People have been saying a bird has to MEET the standard to be that breed. I have read that thread, but I do not see where waddles answered them there. I was asking her to clarify something she said.

 

[gojira]

p

In the early days of the Rhode Island Red Club they held yearly contests to see who had the most productive layers. They would use trap nests and keep up with individual laying records and there would be prizes and awards for whoever had the most productive layers. It is well known within club history that do to the competitive nature of the contest and the benefits of winning it that some people started crossing in Leghorns to increase the laying ability of their strain of Reds. As time moves on you had two distinctly different types of reds...the birds that were dark and big as per the standard and the lighter colored, smaller high egg production Reds. There became turmoil within the club about about accepting the production birds because they were not what was originally intended for the breed but rather a result of the competition for the egg laying contests. There was finally a decision made to go with the darker colored, larger, dual purpose birds as that is what their original intent was. This caused some portion of the membership to fall off but the club felt like it was the right thing to do.

It has been my understanding for many years that hatcheries have used the practice of crossing in leghorns to every traditional breed to increase the egg laying abilities to accommodate the demand for backyard layers. Most people that have a few chickens in their backyard are primarily interested in having eggs year around and these traditional breeds were not capable of that as they have a natural process of laying heavily in the spring, not laying in the summer, laying heavily in the fall and not laying in the winter. Leghorns did not have this fault therefore they were the obvious choice to cross in to get the desired result. From the hatcheries perspective...as long as the birds somewhat resembles the breed that they claim them to be than that is what they are. If you will look at almost every breed of hatchery birds you will see that the body types are almost identical...the only difference in them is the color patterns. No, I don't have a written letter from all of the hatcheries stating that this is exactly how this was done but it is the accepted reasoning among serious poultry breeders.

Having said all that...for the people that just want a few layers out in their backyard to have a consistent supply of eggs for the table these birds are perfect. They will lay many eggs and provide enjoyment for those that have them.

As far as pedigrees, chickens do not have a documented pedigree system that is overseen by a governing body but the line of Rhode Island Reds that I keep are suppose to be pure for over 100 years. I can't verify it for the whole 100 years but I can verify it for about 40 of them and before that there were only 2 other people that had the line including the originator. So, there are some very pure lines of chickens out there but they are exceedingly rare.


I did not come on this thread to put down hatchery birds as I don't see them in that way. They serve a very practical purpose for the vast majority of the poultry community. The original poster asked a question and as the the current President of the Rhode Island Red Club of America I felt like he needed a clarification of the different choices of Rhode Island Reds in existence rather than just a yes or no answer. Sometimes yes or no doesn't fully answer a question.


Matt

I have heard the stories about the laying contests. How do you know those birds became hatchery RIR, and not what they sell as Production Reds? How do we know that those birds even continued on? You say it is your understanding that hatcheries have used the practice of crossing in leghorns to every traditional breed to increase the egg laying abilities to accommodate the demand for backyard layers, but that is just an assumption, and you stated it as fact. You can increase egg production by genetic selection. Some hatcheries have been going for a century now, so there has been a lot of potential for genetic selection. Also, changes in body type can come as a result of relaxed genetic selection. If you took a few of your birds, and either did no selection at all, or selected only for egg production, you would have a completely different group of birds over time. And think about if you did that early on in breed's history when the genes were not lined up as they are now after 100 years of selection for certain characteristics. Also, the characteristics of the breed were different when hatcheries began breeding them. Yes, you posted to the original poster, but you also made a claim that you have yet to back up. When one makes a claim, they should be researched beforehand, and one should not rely on what other people have speculated. According to your reasoning, are we to assume that other things have been added to certain lines of RIR over the years? They look much different than the birds originally accepted by the APA.

 

[waddles99]

If you want proof that hatcheries use Leghorns in other breeds, you're not going to get any. However, evidence suggests that there is some leghorn blood in a lot of hatchery birds.


Look at the 2 examples of hatchery birds at the top, compared with 2 examples of heritage birds underneath. See how the birds on the top have a body shape and tail angle closer to the leghorn? This would suggest leghorn blood in the birds. Also, the diluted color of the RIR and the poorly defined striping on the BR would suggest leghorn blood as well. This isn't concrete evidence, but I think this is the closest to proof you will get.

 

[waddles99]

Again, show me proof that hatcheries do add Leghorn into other breeds. You can get pinched tails and lighter builds without adding Leghorn. Neither of those links say that a bird has to MEET the standard to be that breed. If a bird has to MEET that standard, very few birds do, so very few people, if any, have Rhode Island Reds. You then changed and said birds of a breed should come close to the standard. There is a difference between meeting standard, and coming close. So if birds differ slightly in color, tail angle, eye color, etc., they are different breeds? The standard is very specific. It lists one tail angle, so if the tail angle is slightly different, a bird does not MEET the standard. It might come close, but that is not the same as meeting it. People have been saying a bird has to MEET the standard to be that breed. I have read that thread, but I do not see where waddles answered them there. I was asking her to clarify something she said.

I think you are confused as to the difference between "meet" and "perfectly match". When I say "meet" the standard, I don't mean perfectly match what the standard has to say. Birds that have minor faults do meet the standard. Birds that have major faults do not. No bird is perfect, and no bird will be a perfect example of the breed standard. Meeting the standard simply means that they come close to what a RIR is supposed to look like. If birds differ slightly in tail angle, or eye color, or any other characteristic, they are all RIR as long as they are close to the standard. A slight difference in color is a lot different than a bird with a 40 degree tail, rusty color, and completely wrong type. Here is an example.
This is one of my birds:


This is an image of the breed standard:


This is an example of a hatchery bird:


To meet a breed standard is a whole different thing than to match the breed standard. If a bird meets a breed standard, than it means that it comes reasonably close enough to the standard to be classified as that breed. It is impossible to match the breed standard. The standard was set as something to develop the breed towards, not necessarily as something that already existed. Some breeders will tell you that we are still a long way away from the breed standard. If you look at the above images, you will find that my bird on top comes a lot closer than the hatchery bred bird on the bottom. Is my bird perfect? No, but unlike the one on the bottom, it comes close enough to the breed standard to be classified as a Rhode Island Red. And, yes RIR meeting the standard are extremely rare. Robert Blosl stated that during the winter months there are only about 200 adult birds, and during the summer months, maybe 1000 in the USA.

 

[heritagehatch]

This lively discussion raises some interesting issues perhaps needing some clarification.
A breed is a specific group of domestic animals having homogeneous appearance (phenotype), homogeneous behavior, and/or other characteristics that distinguish it from other organisms of the same species and that were arrived at through selective breeding. Despite the centrality of the idea of "breeds" to animal husbandry and agriculture, no single, scientifically accepted definition of the term exists. A breed is therefore not an objective or biologically verifiable classification but is instead a term of art amongst groups of breeders who share a consensus around what qualities make some members of a given species members of a nameable subset.
When bred together, individuals of the same breed pass on these predictable traits to their offspring, and this ability—known as "breeding true"—is a requirement for a breed. Plant breeds are more commonly known as cultivars. The offspring produced as a result of breeding animals of one breed with other animals of another breed are known as crossbreeds or mixed breeds. Crosses between animal or plant variants above the level of breed/cultivar (i.e. between species, subspecies, botanical variety, even different genera) are referred to as hybrids.
In order for a definitive understanding as to the lineage of any poultry, one would be required to genetically test the subject animal (s) in order to compare it against data from others in the "breed". This is a true and accurate means of understanding the make up of any individuals or "proof" that a strain has been hybridized.
It seems and awful waste of resources to do so, instead of just enjoying the individual animals for what they are. It really should not be so contrary as to what "breed" they are or are not. They will still cluck, lay eggs and enrich their keepers lives just the same.

 

[deafguy2]

If you want proof that hatcheries use Leghorns in other breeds, you're not going to get any. However, evidence suggests that there is some leghorn blood in a lot of hatchery birds.


Look at the 2 examples of hatchery birds at the top, compared with 2 examples of heritage birds underneath. See how the birds on the top have a body shape and tail angle closer to the leghorn? This would suggest leghorn blood in the birds. Also, the diluted color of the RIR and the poorly defined striping on the BR would suggest leghorn blood as well. This isn't concrete evidence, but I think this is the closest to proof you will get.

Oh another one?! I probably raised the fake Plymouth Barred Rock.

 

[deafguy2]

Oh another one?! I probably raised the fake Plymouth Barred Rock.

Can you kindly post the real photos between hatchery and true Plymouth Barred Rock if you don't mind to share? Thank you!