Rhode Island Red yes or no?

We are stewards of the original birds from the collection of the late Master Breeder Prof. Emeritus Lee Roy Jones. Through DNA studies in cooperation with WHAGR we have been able to determine that what went into making this particular "strain" or family line is now gone, other than in this population. Therefore, WHAGR concluded that the genetic point of origination of these birds begins well prior to when others and Prof. Jones worked with them years ago in the 1920's. While this article pre dates any WHAGR gene mapping done on these birds it is interesting:
History of the Rhode Island Red Bantam
By Robert Blosl
Silverhill, Alabama

Introduction: The documented history of the Rhode Island Red Bantam goes back to the period of the early 1920’s when Perrin Johnson of Rochester, New York began his new strain of Red Bantams by crossing large fowl Single Comb Rhode Island Reds with old English Game,Cochin and Wyandotte bantams. In Mr. Johnson’s 1925 mating list, he stated that the Rhode Island Red Bantam should be true bantam in weight, size and not be a half-size Red. Mr. Johnson eagerly supplied most of the original bantams to other red breeders who began raising this popular new bantam and worked with this group to organize the Rhode Island Red Bantam Club of America. During this time, he served as their President for over ten years then club secretary until the club merged with the Rhode Island Red Club in the mid 1940s. The red bantam breeders had their problems during this early development period with this new breed as they where plagued with fluffy wide feathers , cushions in the top lines from the Cochins and the elevated top lines from the Wyandotte's. To make thinks even more difficult, the introduction of Old English Games gave them pinched tails and pointed down wing carriages. In the 1930s the Red Bantams started to shape up like their large fowl counterparts, however their major problems was with oversized birds. Mr. Johnson was displeased with this dilemma and began to complain to the membership of the Red Bantam Club about the judges picking the best red bantams because of under color, surface color, and bigger birds rather than correct weight and size. The members voiced back the old age reason if we do not show the bigger birds we cannot win. He fired back challenging them what is more important winning at the shows or perfecting the breed. The members began to listen to Perrin and started weighing the red bantams at the shows and before long the larger birds where no longer being exhibited and the judges where forced to pick the truly better typed birds. For a period, Mr. Johnson would weigh all the bantams at the National Meets and Regional Red Meets that he attended and place the weights on the coop tags for all to see. .
Purves Introduction: The majority of the breeders where still trying hard to produce bantams that resembled their large fowl siblings, however, it was not until the late 1930s that Perrin Johnson made a visit to Upstate New York to Robert Purves home and asked him if he ever had any small runty large fowl birds to ship them to his home to help him improve his color and type on his strain of red bantams. That year Mr. Purves did have a very small large fowl R I Red cockerel and shipped him to Mr. Johnson to cross onto his bantams. An interesting side note to this is the small large fowl cockerel was half Harold Tompkins strain from Massachusetts and half Thomas Ricksecker strain from Kansas, which is how the introduction of the Red Web feather was introduced into our red bantams from the Ricksecker cross. It was about two years later that Ken Bowles of New York visited Mr. Purves at his home and told him that the little large fowl cockerel that you sent Perrin really helped him improve his type on his bantams.
The Lost Gene: A few years later, looking for more help with darker color, Mr. Johnson obtained from Ernie Jones of Rochester New York a small runty Rose Comb large fowl pullet and this little female really spring boarded the Johnson strain with more intense color and type. This rose comb large fowl pullet set the stage for the improvement of the dark even red color in the strains of Rhode Island Red Bantams then and even today. Ernie Jones had a strange trait in his Rose Comb Large Fowl that they where so dark in color that about a half hour before dark his whole flock of large fowl would display a vermilion hue color to their feathers. Many who visited Mr. Jones poultry yards and saw this phenomenon at sundown said it was a sight to behold. Many of the Jones chicks when hatched displayed a purplish down color rather than dark red color and were considered a major indicator of the finest color a Rhode Island Red could obtain when full grown. One article on the RIH web site titled “In Search of the Lost Gene” is based on this very trait from this introduction of rose comb blood into the Johnson strain of bantams.
Introduction to the Standard of Perfection: The single Comb Red Bantam was first introduced to the public at The Salem Poultry show, in Salem, Ohio in November 1939. A special request was presented by the National Red Bantam Club to the APA where there where 9 cock birds, 15, pullets, 7 hens 13 cockerels, 4 old trios, and 4 young trios exhibited by over ten exhibitors. It took until March 1940, to secure the necessary affadavideds to the standard committee of the APA and the breed was except at the 1940 St. Louis, MissouriAPA meeting. The weights accepted by the APA standard Committee were: Cocks 34 ounces, Hens 30 ounces, Cockerels 30 ounces and Pullets 26 ounces. Four ounces over weight in any class will disqualify the bird from competition. Further recommendations that type and color for both males and females be the same as for the large Reds. The leading breeders in the 1940’s of the new Single Comb Red Bantam where Perrin Johnson of New York, Harold Thomforde of Minnesota, Jack Mundhenk of Ohio, Paul Zawadzke of Indiana, Charles Naugle of Ohio, Ralph Knickerbocker of New York, John Melchert of Minnesota, Walter Gainey of Illinois, F. G. Crumbacker of Ohio, Lewis Bennison of North Carolina, L.A. Hamilton of South Carolina, William Etter of Pennsylvania, Oscar Winfield of Kansas, Harold Serviss of New York, E.W. Leffingwell of Kansas and Pearl Daniels of Massachusetts. The first National Meet held after the admission of the Single Comb Red Bantams was at Rochester New York Show where 120 red bantams where exhibited with their crops empty. All birds where weighed by Perrin Johnson and of the nine cocks entered only two were eligible. The first cock weighed 34 ounces.
Introduction of the Rose Comb to the Standard of Perfection: As Mr. Johnson kept improving his single comb strain of red bantams by the introduction of the Jones Rose Comb large fowl pullet, he also developed a new line of Rose Comb bantams and this is how the origin of the Rose Comb Red Bantam began. Mr. Johnson continued to share his single and rose comb bantams with the other breeders throughout the country and it was not too much longer the red bantams where getting to the size and brick shape type that he always dreamed of. It took much time and development by many but the rose combs red bantams where gaining popularity with the members of the Red Club and in 1954 at the Ohio State Fair ten members exhibited 50 rose comb bantams under the leadership of F.G. Crumbacher of Ohioto qualify the variety to be introduced to the Standard of Perfection.
Heavy Promotion by the Red Club: During the period of 1947 to 1950, the members of the Rhode Island Red Club started to promote the Red Bantams in the Rhode Island Red Club Chronicle under the direction of the new bantam editor Allen D. Fitchett of Oklahoma. Each issue during this timeframe was stuffed with great articles by many of the old time breeders of red bantams as well as the new members who caught the bug and started to write about their opinions and experiences. Many members who once kept large fowl Reds where forced to down size their poultry plants from large poultry farms and convert to bantams more as a hobby than a business. Many members moved into the cities and suburbs and had back yard flocks, which served there purpose for eggs, meat and show birds. The Rhode Island Red bantam because of these two years of promotion in the Red Chronicle was becoming one of the most popular bantams at the shows in our country as well as England, Europe andAustralia.
The Next Level of Excellence: As time moved, forward into the mid 1950s a breeder named of R. Paul Webb of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma made a cross of some Walter Gainey bantams onto an unknown line of red bantams and produced some of the finest red bantams the world ever saw. At 1957 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Poultry Show the Rhode Island Red Club held its National meet and Judge Harold Weideman from Kansas City, Missouri picked a Single Comb Cockerel of Mr. Webb’s line as Best Rhode Island Red of the show and Reserve Champion of the entire Show. Mr. Weideman went on to say to the members at the National Meet that this is the finest Rhode Island Red I ever handled and I had made many trips to Harold Tompkins farm as well as judging thousands of Reds in my judging career. Much of the Rhode Island Red bantam strains today that we have can link back to this cross by Mr. Webb through the introduction of his birds to the strains of Tom McLaughlin of Indiana and Lee Roy Jones of Kentucky, Anton Mazanec of Texas, H. H. Andrews of Texas and David Bell of Texas.

The Rhode Island Red Club is celebrating the 150th anniversary of the Rhode Island Red breed and the 50thanniversary of the Rhode Island Red as the state bird of Rhode Island.

 
We are stewards of the original birds from the collection of the late Master Breeder Prof. Emeritus Lee Roy Jones. Through DNA studies in cooperation with WHAGR we have been able to determine that what went into making this particular "strain" or family line is now gone, other than in this population. Therefore, WHAGR concluded that the genetic point of origination of these birds begins well prior to when others and Prof. Jones worked with them years ago in the 1920's. While this article pre dates any WHAGR gene mapping done on these birds it is interesting:
[COLOR=000000]History of the Rhode Island Red Bantam[/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]By Robert Blosl[/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]Silverhill[COLOR=000000], Alabama[/COLOR][/COLOR]​
[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]Introduction:[COLOR=000000] The documented history of the Rhode Island Red Bantam goes back to the period of the early 1920’s when Perrin Johnson of Rochester, New York began his new strain of Red Bantams by crossing large fowl Single Comb Rhode Island Reds with old English Game,Cochin and Wyandotte bantams. In Mr. Johnson’s 1925 mating list, he stated that the Rhode Island Red Bantam should be true bantam in weight, size and not be a half-size Red. Mr. Johnson eagerly supplied most of the original bantams to other red breeders who began raising this popular new bantam and worked with this group to organize the Rhode Island Red Bantam Club of America. During this time, he served as their President for over ten years then club secretary until the club merged with the Rhode Island Red Club in the mid 1940s. The red bantam breeders had their problems during this early development period with this new breed as they where plagued with fluffy wide feathers , cushions in the top lines from the Cochins and the elevated top lines from the Wyandotte's. To make thinks even more difficult, the introduction of Old English Games gave them pinched tails and pointed down wing carriages. In the 1930s the Red Bantams started to shape up like their large fowl counterparts, however their major problems was with oversized birds. Mr. Johnson was displeased with this dilemma and began to complain to the membership of the Red Bantam Club about the judges picking the best red bantams because of under color, surface color, and bigger birds rather than correct weight and size. The members voiced back the old age reason if we do not show the bigger birds we cannot win. He fired back challenging them what is more important winning at the shows or perfecting the breed. The members began to listen to Perrin and started weighing the red bantams at the shows and before long the larger birds where no longer being exhibited and the judges where forced to pick the truly better typed birds. For a period, Mr. Johnson would weigh all the bantams at the National Meets and Regional Red Meets that he attended and place the weights on the coop tags for all to see. .[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]Purves Introduction:[COLOR=000000] The majority of the breeders where still trying hard to produce bantams that resembled their large fowl siblings, however, it was not until the late 1930s that Perrin Johnson made a visit to Upstate New York to Robert Purves home and asked him if he ever had any small runty large fowl birds to ship them to his home to help him improve his color and type on his strain of red bantams. That year Mr. Purves did have a very small large fowl R I Red cockerel and shipped him to Mr. Johnson to cross onto his bantams. An interesting side note to this is the small large fowl cockerel was half Harold Tompkins strain from Massachusetts and half Thomas Ricksecker strain from Kansas, which is how the introduction of the Red Web feather was introduced into our red bantams from the Ricksecker cross. It was about two years later that Ken Bowles of New York visited Mr. Purves at his home and told him that the little large fowl cockerel that you sent Perrin really helped him improve his type on his bantams.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]The Lost Gene:[COLOR=000000] A few years later, looking for more help with darker color, Mr. Johnson obtained from Ernie Jones of Rochester New York a small runty Rose Comb large fowl pullet and this little female really spring boarded the Johnson strain with more intense color and type. This rose comb large fowl pullet set the stage for the improvement of the dark even red color in the strains of Rhode Island Red Bantams then and even today. Ernie Jones had a strange trait in his Rose Comb Large Fowl that they where so dark in color that about a half hour before dark his whole flock of large fowl would display a vermilion hue color to their feathers. Many who visited Mr. Jones poultry yards and saw this phenomenon at sundown said it was a sight to behold. Many of the Jones chicks when hatched displayed a purplish down color rather than dark red color and were considered a major indicator of the finest color a Rhode Island Red could obtain when full grown. One article on the RIH web site titled “In Search of the Lost Gene” is based on this very trait from this introduction of rose comb blood into the Johnson strain of bantams.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000] Introduction to the Standard of Perfection[COLOR=000000]: The single Comb Red Bantam was first introduced to the public at The Salem Poultry show, in Salem, Ohio in November 1939. A special request was presented by the National Red Bantam Club to the APA where there where 9 cock birds, 15, pullets, 7 hens 13 cockerels, 4 old trios, and 4 young trios exhibited by over ten exhibitors. It took until March 1940, to secure the necessary affadavideds to the standard committee of the APA and the breed was except at the 1940 St. Louis, MissouriAPA meeting. The weights accepted by the APA standard Committee were: Cocks 34 ounces, Hens 30 ounces, Cockerels 30 ounces and Pullets 26 ounces. Four ounces over weight in any class will disqualify the bird from competition. Further recommendations that type and color for both males and females be the same as for the large Reds. The leading breeders in the 1940’s of the new Single Comb Red Bantam where Perrin Johnson of New York, Harold Thomforde of Minnesota, Jack Mundhenk of Ohio, Paul Zawadzke of Indiana, Charles Naugle of Ohio, Ralph Knickerbocker of New York, John Melchert of Minnesota, Walter Gainey of Illinois, F. G. Crumbacker of Ohio, Lewis Bennison of North Carolina, L.A. Hamilton of South Carolina, William Etter of Pennsylvania, Oscar Winfield of Kansas, Harold Serviss of New York, E.W. Leffingwell of Kansas and Pearl Daniels of Massachusetts. The first National Meet held after the admission of the Single Comb Red Bantams was at Rochester New York Show where 120 red bantams where exhibited with their crops empty. All birds where weighed by Perrin Johnson and of the nine cocks entered only two were eligible. The first cock weighed 34 ounces.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]Introduction of the Rose Comb to the Standard of Perfection:[COLOR=000000] As Mr. Johnson kept improving his single comb strain of red bantams by the introduction of the Jones Rose Comb large fowl pullet, he also developed a new line of Rose Comb bantams and this is how the origin of the Rose Comb Red Bantam began. Mr. Johnson continued to share his single and rose comb bantams with the other breeders throughout the country and it was not too much longer the red bantams where getting to the size and brick shape type that he always dreamed of. It took much time and development by many but the rose combs red bantams where gaining popularity with the members of the Red Club and in 1954 at the Ohio State Fair ten members exhibited 50 rose comb bantams under the leadership of F.G. Crumbacher of Ohioto qualify the variety to be introduced to the Standard of Perfection.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]Heavy Promotion by the Red Club:[COLOR=000000] During the period of 1947 to 1950, the members of the Rhode Island Red Club started to promote the Red Bantams in the Rhode Island Red Club Chronicle under the direction of the new bantam editor Allen D. Fitchett of Oklahoma. Each issue during this timeframe was stuffed with great articles by many of the old time breeders of red bantams as well as the new members who caught the bug and started to write about their opinions and experiences. Many members who once kept large fowl Reds where forced to down size their poultry plants from large poultry farms and convert to bantams more as a hobby than a business. Many members moved into the cities and suburbs and had back yard flocks, which served there purpose for eggs, meat and show birds. The Rhode Island Red bantam because of these two years of promotion in the Red Chronicle was becoming one of the most popular bantams at the shows in our country as well as England, Europe andAustralia.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]The Next Level of Excellence:[COLOR=000000] As time moved, forward into the mid 1950s a breeder named of R. Paul Webb of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma made a cross of some Walter Gainey bantams onto an unknown line of red bantams and produced some of the finest red bantams the world ever saw. At 1957 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Poultry Show the Rhode Island Red Club held its National meet and Judge Harold Weideman from Kansas City, Missouri picked a Single Comb Cockerel of Mr. Webb’s line as Best Rhode Island Red of the show and Reserve Champion of the entire Show. Mr. Weideman went on to say to the members at the National Meet that this is the finest Rhode Island Red I ever handled and I had made many trips to Harold Tompkins farm as well as judging thousands of Reds in my judging career. Much of the Rhode Island Red bantam strains today that we have can link back to this cross by Mr. Webb through the introduction of his birds to the strains of Tom McLaughlin of Indiana and Lee Roy Jones of Kentucky, Anton Mazanec of Texas, H. H. Andrews of Texas and David Bell of Texas.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]The Rhode Island Red Club is celebrating the 150th anniversary of the Rhode Island Red breed and the 50[SUP]th[/SUP]anniversary of the Rhode Island Red as the state bird of Rhode Island.
[/COLOR]
I know where 2 flocks of Red bantams are that go back to Lee Roy Jones strain. Matt
 
In my opinion no commercial hatchery has pure bred poultry at this point. If you desire to have pure bred birds you must find people in the show circuit. I would be glad to help anyone find what they are looking for. If you want to PM me I will try to help you however I can. I don't sell many birds anymore but I know a lot of people and would be glad to get you in touch with them.

Matt
No offense, but I feel one should research before they form an opinion. Yes, hatcheries offer hybrids (Cornish cross, sex links, etc.), but they still offer purebred birds as well. In some breeds and varieties, they might be the only source of purebred birds. Just curious, do you know anyone who has purebred New Hampshires? Those seem to be a needle in the haystack these days. Orpingtons the same thing, although I guess English Orpingtons are the same, just selected differently. Maybe someone could put together a database of people with purebred birds of various breeds, and how far they go back without any crossing?
 
Yes, Rhode Island Reds were created using leghorn and malay about 150 years ago. Once they were developed, however, they needed to maintain consistency and uniformity within the breed in order to be accepted into the APA. They no longer were breeding in different breeds, since a breed had already been created and needed to breed true for 5 generations in order to be accepted. This means that there is no reason for leghorns to be bred into RIR after they were developed, unless for the conscious purpose of increasing laying.
The leghorn suggestion is merely a theory, I was just pointing out how they may have some influence from leghorns resulting in their incorrect color and type. If you think this is not the case, perhaps you will be willing to suggest a reason why? You seem to be overly focused on the breeds used to create these birds. You have to understand that at the moment the APA accepted a breed, there is a standard for it, and you need to focus on the standard of that breed and not the breeds used to create it. A barred rock is not a dominique.
If you don't think that a white leghorn would dilute the color of a RIR or BR, you need a lesson on genetics. When chickens breed, their offspring exhibit a mix of both birds. Which is why a RIR bred to a white leghorn would be significantly lighter than a RIR, or a BR bred to a leghorn would have incomplete striping.
Are you a junior exhibitor? Just asking. I mentioned Leghorn was used in the creation of RIR to explain how the type could revert back to that without any additional crossing back to Leghorn. If breeders are no longer making crosses to other breeds, you really need to inform them of that. That is not an uncommon practice to revive traits in some varieties/breeds. There is one popular "breeder" that was producing Silver Wyandottes with single combs. I was not overly impressed with his SC RIR either. I realize a Barred Plymouth Rock is not a Dominique, but the breed/variety arose from them.

The Leghorn suggestion is more than a theory. People have been posting it as fact, with nothing to back it up. Ok, how do you feel Leghorns could have influenced incorrect color ant type? You are aware that Leghorns are partly responsible for the color of the modern RIR? You know there are other colors of Leghorns other than white? I have stated how I feel hatchery birds have the color and type they do. Decreased selection pressure, and moving back towards the parent breeds in type and color. But, that would take a little knowledge of genetics to understand that. But, you have to realize, and understand, that some hatcheries have had Rhode Island Reds and Barred Plymouth Rocks for nearly 100 years. The Standard for those breeds are different from what they are today. The birds you see from a hatchery are not far removed from the standard of 100 years ago. The birds had a higher tail angle, the Rhode Island Reds were lighter in color, Barred Rocks did not have barring as sharp as they have today, etc. It is possible that the hatchery birds are more pure, and have a longer lineage of purity, than the birds you would get from a breeder. When chickens breed, the offspring do not always exhibit a mix of both birds Sometimes they come out completely different. But, it take an understanding of genetics to understand that. Do you know what would happen if you crossed a White Leghorn with a RIR? Do you know what would happen if you crossed a White leghorn with a Barred Plymouth Rock? Those are easy if you understand one gene present in White Leghorns.


Edited by Staff
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You have to keep in mind, Leghorns come in colors other than white...
Read what I said in post 85 of this thread. I am well aware that Leghorns come in colors (varieties) other than white. Waddles mentioned White Leghorns specifically (read post 81 of this thread), and that is what I was responding to. I was told by Waddles that "if (I) don't think that a white leghorn would dilute the color of a RIR or BR, (I) need a lesson on genetics.
 
You also need to consider that dominant white is a modifier gene for extended black, the most dominant pattern gene a chicken can have. You have no way of knowing what is hiding under that dominant white/extended black combination. It could literally be anything.
 
Please keep the tone down on this thread. There is no need for all the harshness. Discuss the topic in a civil manner please!

Thank for your cooperation.

-BYC Staff
 
Explain how. Provide examples if possible.

I own RIR x White Leghorn. The result is a bird with tan feathers that looks like this:


The rooster is white with tan markings, like this:


I would imagine this is proof enough.
 

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