RIR's and New Hampshire Reds?

[Chris09]

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Maurice Wallace of Iroquois Canada.
Mrs. Donald Donaldson bought the bird from Maurice Wallace.
That is a Mohawk line R.I. Red and one of the 6 Nation Reds, the 6 Indianan Nation (tribes) that Mr.Wallace used where the Mohawks, Oneida, Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, and Tuscarora Indian nations.

Chris

well almost I must have misunderstood what I was reading

All's good..
Not to many people would now her name. You did good.

Chris

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
well almost I must have misunderstood what I was reading

All's good..
Not to many people would now her name. You did good.

Chris

thanks

 

[Robert Blosl]

You are turning into good stewards of the breed. Maybe the gods in Red Heven can send a care package to you for Christmas. You are correct. He would die if he read the stuff on this thread. There was never a large fowl breeder with the force and wisdom of this little man from Canada. He was as good as Schiling except he could not paint pictures like Schilling. bob

 

[spartacus_63]

They will always be, ''members of their parent breed"

That is exactly the point I have been trying to convey.

Yes, you will have two different breeds.

And according to Bob, there is no such breed as the New Hampshire, and you have just contradicted yourself. So I'm not sure this is accurate.

Now just so no one is unclear, I have never claimed to have SQ birds, and I have no desire to breed my birds to show quality. At 200 plus eggs a year on average and 6 to 7 1/2 lbs fryers at 32 wks, I have been able to more than pay the feed bill. My goal is to continue and possibly improve my flock along the lines of the original intentions of the RIR birds. I am of the belief that the birds are the color and shape they are because they lend to vigor, hardiness and long lived production. Great homestead birds!

If you wish to breed your production red chickens year in and year out go do it. What hurts the feeling of the 1% and guys such as Ken Bowles is trying to put them in the same box of chickens and the old style birds. They are not what you think they are.

I have no desire to put my birds in anyone else's box and I think I have been clear throughout. My eggs and my meat are no less worthy than any other RIR in the market. There are some man made definitions that create niche markets. My birds fit into the definitions as they are laid out. If someone else has a differing opinion, they have not convinced me that I am misinterpreting the requisites.

now I have
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/63711_39612_dusty.jpg
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/63711_39612_chickens_0010_edited-1.jpg
now your birds are not bred to the standard I am sure they are nice birds but that are not true RIR.

Punky, Although these are great layers, they are Dusty & Bertha, two of my rescue birds. These are feed store birds that the owner lost interest in. Along with a quad of buffs and a Barred Rock.​

 

[Chris09]

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I thought you were leading to that answer...

You can breed your hatchery, "Rhode Island Reds" [production reds] till your dead and gone and the chances of you getting a correct true R.I. Red will be slim to none.
You would have the same chances in trying to pull out one of the breeds that make up the R.I. Red like the Royal Cochin Chinas, Malay, or Brahma. I know people that bred Reds for years and never have I seen or herd of anything remotely close to a past breed popping up in there breeding's. So what makes you think that you can pull out a true R.I. Red from hatchery, "Rhode Island Reds" [production reds]

And according to Bob, there is no such breed as the New Hampshire, and you have just contradicted yourself. So I'm not sure this is accurate

If you cant understand the deference between a true R.I. Red and a "Rhode Island Reds" [production reds] you will never understand why Bob and other Red breeders says there is no such breed as a New Hampshire or a Production Red so, I am not even going to try.

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That who lays out, who is, "they"? Murray McMurray? If so then yes it is a fine example of McMurray's stock. If you are trying to say your birds meets the ASOP well you might want to reread the ASOP.

Chris​

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
That is exactly the point I have been trying to convey.
how do you know if they are crossbreds or not?

Yes, you will have two different breeds.

And according to Bob, there is no such breed as the New Hampshire, and you have just contradicted yourself. So I'm not sure this is accurate.

bob is saying thay there is no such breed saying the new hampshire RED

If you wish to breed your production red chickens year in and year out go do it. What hurts the feeling of the 1% and guys such as Ken Bowles is trying to put them in the same box of chickens and the old style birds. They are not what you think they are.

I have no desire to put my birds in anyone else's box and I think I have been clear throughout. My eggs and my meat are no less worthy than any other RIR in the market. There are some man made definitions that create niche markets. My birds fit into the definitions as they are laid out. If someone else has a differing opinion, they have not convinced me that I am misinterpreting the requisites.
You are showing your ignorance of the breed and have limited your horizons.

now I have
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/63711_39612_dusty.jpg
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/63711_39612_chickens_0010_edited-1.jpg
now your birds are not bred to the standard I am sure they are nice birds but that are not true RIR.

Punky, Although these are great layers, they are Dusty & Bertha, two of my rescue birds. These are feed store birds that the owner lost interest in. Along with a quad of buffs and a Barred Rock.​

do you use them to breed?​

 

[punky rooster]

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Punky, Although these are great layers, they are Dusty & Bertha, two of my rescue birds. These are feed store birds that the owner lost interest in. Along with a quad of buffs and a Barred Rock.

they come from hatcheries then

 

[Robert Blosl]

Excellent example of a good production red female from a farm that sells chicks from Idaho.

Here is a picture of a pair of Standard Breed Rhode Island Reds sitting down to an excellent production red female. Notice the difference in color. The lighter they are the better they lay in my view.

Here is the last painting done by Arthur Schilling done I think in 1954. It has been used by many companies to display Rhode Island Red breed. Watts Publishing Company has the rights to this great picture and many more.
I am still looking for the top production strains in the USA if you know any that are super outstanding or hidden and we don’t know about them let me know. You will be surprised how many people want to get into selling fresh home grown brown eggs to supplement their income.

As I told you before Standard Rhode Island Reds are a dual purpose breed and are not good for the egg selling market. You can still have them and enjoy them and sell their eggs but they should earn enough money for you to cover your feed bill.

The person who started this thread is a beginner and I think her main purpose based on reading her other messages is she has limited space but wants lots of eggs. I have noticed this new movement of young people moving to the country or having a small back yard lot is they have a real fancy chicken house but they are limited to the numbers of females they can have to lay eggs. In some cases they can not have a rooster because of the crowing issue which I understand. Hope this has helped a lot of the beginners of the diffenernt types of chickens they can own from breeders or hatcheries and what they can and can not do. It seems the American Class is the number one breed class that I get emails or private messages on thier breeds of interest. Some have asked for their winnings at the shows and some of these people like Javas breeders dont show. They just breed to save the breed from going down the tube.
Bob

 

[punky rooster]

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[spartacus_63]

I thought you were leading to that answer...

I was not leading to any answer. I asked three simple questions that the answers to are the basis for my belief. Obviously, you are experienced in husbandry to know the answers and the answers are what we have in common. It is amazing where facts will take you.

You can breed your hatchery, "Rhode Island Reds" [production reds] till your dead and gone and the chances of you getting a correct true R.I. Red will be slim to none.
You would have the same chances in trying to pull out one of the breeds that make up the R.I. Red like the Royal Cochin Chinas, Malay, or Brahma. I know people that bred Reds for years and never have I seen or herd of anything remotely close to a past breed popping up in there breeding's. So what makes you think that you can pull out a true R.I. Red from hatchery, "Rhode Island Reds" [production reds]

This, to me is the reason there are two groups of folks in breeding. There is always one group of breeders who breed for show quality with less regard to purpose and there are the others who are interested in breed characteristic and breed to continue and perhaps improve the characteristics of their flock, gaggle, heard or pack with less regard to looks. So if a "true RIR" is a APA SOP letter perfect bird, slim to none. If a "true RIR" is a genetically correct bird that possesses and displays the characteristics of breed, I think I have a pretty good chance of pulling out a long line of RIRs. I do not have an opinion that puts one group on a higher level than the other. There is a useful purpose for both. I obviously fall into the later category.

If you cant understand the deference between a true R.I. Red and a "Rhode Island Reds" [production reds]

It seems that several folks fail to read my responses as I have stated numerous times that I get it. I do understand the difference between a SQ bird and a typical bird. The differences do not change the facts though.

If you are trying to say your birds meets the ASOP well you might want to reread the ASOP.

I think I have previously stated that my birds follow the guidelines established in the SOP, although I have never stated that they were perfect.

That who lays out, who is, "they"?

The ALBC.

how do you know if they are crossbreds or not?

The same way you do with your birds.

bob is saying thay there is no such breed saying the new hampshire RED

You may be right on this one, I am not in Bob's head, but it doesn't change that Chris contradicted himself between the two answers.

You are showing your ignorance of the breed and have limited your horizons.

Thanks Punky. One of the greatest forms of flattery is imitation.

do you use them to breed?

I consider my rescue birds as hybrids. Some of their eggs may get hatched under certain circumstances, but these are not birds with which I intend to propagate my flock.

they come from hatcheries then

I think I said they were feed store birds. To clarify, feed stores around here do not normally get their chicks from hatcheries. They normally get them from individuals. So in my opinion, it would be more accurate to say they get them from breeders.
Breeder - A person who breeds animals or plants.
Hatchery - A place where eggs, especially those of fish or poultry, are hatched.

I have a few more questions that as a novice, I am unaware of:

1) Does the "Standard Of Perfection" for a breed change at intervals after the introduction of a breed?

2 ) Are the birds in the cull pen true RIRs?

3) How are birds from the cull pen marketed?

My next pair of questions is less about breeding and more about history. I will admit that I have an opinion towards the correct answer, but I am still asking this with an open mind.

1) What was the original purpose (goal) of the RIR breed?

2) Why were the ancestors of the RIRs bred for the traits that they were bred for?

And one last pair of question about the APA or shows in general:

1) Why are birds not weighed at shows?

2) Why are production statistics not taken into account during judging at shows?​