Rooster started humping my TV remote.😱

[roosterhavoc]

Fun fact, the gap between the extremes of a wild gerbils territory size and a wild chickens territory size is difference of about X10. Given that most people keep gerbils in cages that are only a few sqft, a single chicken should theoretically only need 10xs that amount. So, maybe 30ft? I think a chicken probably has that in a single room of an apartment. Additionally, gerbils are, like chickens, supposed to be colony animals in the wild but are often kept alone. Many finches live in colonies and often appear to maintain territories of up to 4 hectacres but are similarly only given a few square feet....

What we consider to be OK as housepets is not really based on their actual natural needs so much as "are they able to be kept mess free and are not used in other ways by our society". Domestics, on average, handle confinement better than wild animals but we put plenty of basically wild animals in confinement frequently like reptiles and parrots and rodents.

This really isn't any worse than most any other pet, unless someone has evidence to the contrary from a reliable source. TBH, I'm still waiting for any evidence that chickens are happier outdoors than in a pet situation - especially compared to other animals we view as acceptable pets.

I’m just kidding and couldn’t care less if she has an elephant in her apartment.
Your measurements for chickens seems off? Chickens do far better and are healthier when allowed to free range like their wild ancestors. Keeping them in a tiny coop and run is more of a new thing to appease people.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

I’m just kidding and couldn’t care less if she has an elephant in her apartment.
Your measurements for chickens seems off? Chickens do far better and are healthier when allowed to free range like their wild ancestors. Keeping them in a tiny coop and run is more of a new thing to appease people.

I did say extremes (red jungle fowl vary in territory size, but the study I read said it was 0.064km2 per chicken and on the upper end of the gerbils is about 0.0055km2, but... My point is gerbils aren't any happier in the average gerbil cage than chickens would be confined to a single 30sqft space but nobody would be upset if they had a gerbil in an average gerbil cage.

Also, domesticated animals tolerate confinement better than animals that regularly have wild counterparts injected into the breeding populations like many reptiles, birds, and more. They literally have lower stress hormones in smaller spaces than animals that haven't been domesticated under identical high confinement conditions. For example from the citation I posted earlier;

"A similar study raised cavies in captivity for 30 generations and compared their behavior and hormone levels to wild-raised cavies and domesticated guinea pigs. They found that the behavioral differences between domesticated and wild animals held even after 30 generations of captive rearing. Just like before, the wild animals had both a higher basal stress levels and stress responses. Even the captive-raised cavies had higher levels of norepinephrine and epinephrine from the get-go. Furthermore, both the wild and captive-raised cavies showed a markedly higher stress response to an unfamiliar environment than the domesticated guinea pigs."

So domestic chickens handle confinement really well compared to the wild size space requirements. Probably better than many non-domestics we keep in captivity like parrots, certain rodents, and most reptiles. And given that we don't really have any problem saying those animals are probably healthy and acceptable for apartment dwellers, it makes sense that chickens should be fine too.

There's just... Not a lot of evidence that the benefits of being confined to a cozy house with a doting chicken owner is more stressful than being in a flock outdoors with more freedom and more outside stressors.
I'd be interested to hear something quantifiable, bearing in mind that it's not a typical confinement situation, but every time I ask nobody has given me anything. Honestly, there's probably not a lot of research on it.

 

[ladybrasa]

I'm still waiting for any evidence that chickens are happier outdoors than in a pet situation - especially compared to other animals we view as acceptable pets.

Hmmm, I think part of the issue some people had earlier in this thread (like waay back) was his social/mental health with regards to needing another chicken companion (preferably hen) rather than relying on a human as his ‘flock’. I personally lean toward it being more ‘natural’ or ‘healthy’ socially to have another chicken for a chicken’s well being over a human, but of course I’ve no data and doubt there are any studies to that effect (not saying a human can’t, just guess a chicken is best). This kind of is touched upon generally in the article that Chocolate Mouse posted - he has food water and shelter, he has space, he is physically healthy, he is able to engage in natural behaviors like dust-bathing, he doesn’t have to worry about predators. It’s just the social considerations for well-being. We all would agree chickens are social animals - so does he need another chicken to fulfill that or is a cat and a human fine? I guess another thing to consider - how long is he by himself without a human? Like, is work or school an issue? Will it become an issue after Covid? Is the cat sufficient if the OP is away for hours (like on a regular basis, not occasionally grocery shopping or something)? Besides, wouldn’t it be adorable for him to have a little girlfriend (or boyfriend ...)?

 

[roosterhavoc]

I did say extremes (red jungle fowl vary in territory size, but the study I read said it was 0.064km2 per chicken and on the upper end of the gerbils is about 0.0055km2, but... My point is gerbils aren't any happier in the average gerbil cage than chickens would be confined to a single 30sqft space but nobody would be upset if they had a gerbil in an average gerbil cage.

Also, domesticated animals tolerate confinement better than animals that regularly have wild counterparts injected into the breeding populations like many reptiles, birds, and more. They literally have lower stress hormones in smaller spaces than animals that haven't been domesticated under identical high confinement conditions. For example from the citation I posted earlier;

"A similar study raised cavies in captivity for 30 generations and compared their behavior and hormone levels to wild-raised cavies and domesticated guinea pigs. They found that the behavioral differences between domesticated and wild animals held even after 30 generations of captive rearing. Just like before, the wild animals had both a higher basal stress levels and stress responses. Even the captive-raised cavies had higher levels of norepinephrine and epinephrine from the get-go. Furthermore, both the wild and captive-raised cavies showed a markedly higher stress response to an unfamiliar environment than the domesticated guinea pigs."

So domestic chickens handle confinement really well compared to the wild size space requirements. Probably better than many non-domestics we keep in captivity like parrots, certain rodents, and most reptiles. And given that we don't really have any problem saying those animals are probably healthy and acceptable for apartment dwellers, it makes sense that chickens should be fine too.

There's just... Not a lot of evidence that the benefits of being confined to a cozy house with a doting chicken owner is more stressful than being in a flock outdoors with more freedom and more outside stressors.
I'd be interested to hear something quantifiable, bearing in mind that it's not a typical confinement situation, but every time I ask nobody has given me anything. Honestly, there's probably not a lot of research on it.

Keeping chickens inside a human dwelling is a relatively new phenomenon. Again I don’t care what people do but I can guarantee that rooster would be “more at home” in a yard running around with a flock of hens.
The rooster in question could actually benefit from some outside time on the grass. He’s pale as a ghost and it’s not just from the camera flash or the lighting.

 

[ladybrasa]

The rooster in question could actually benefit from some outside time on the grass. He’s pale as a ghost and it’s not just from the camera flash or the lighting.

He does go outside, as has been established. He just doesn’t live outside. Also I don’t think he looks all that pale from the previous pics posted, IMO. His face skin is ‘pale’ as in not stressed red, but his comb and wattles look pretty red to me.

 

[roosterhavoc]

He does go outside, as has been established. He just doesn’t live outside. Also I don’t think he looks all that pale from the previous pics posted, IMO. His face skin is ‘pale’ as in not stressed red, but his comb and wattles look pretty red to me.

nope. Face is pale. I have plenty of roosters and can tell when one is pale faced. I look at over a hundred every single day. I saw where he goes out on the balcony not outside on the grass but I may have missed where that was previously established.

 

[roosterhavoc]

Where are you getting red faced roosters are stressed??? That’s absolutely not true at all.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Keeping chickens inside a human dwelling is a relatively new phenomenon. Again I don’t care what people do but I can guarantee that rooster would be “more at home” in a yard running around with a flock of hens.
The rooster in question could actually benefit from some outside time on the grass. He’s pale as a ghost and it’s not just from the camera flash or the lighting.

It's not a matter of how new it is, it's about hormone levels changing during domestication. If they aren't stressed out, if they're healthy, if they're behaving normally.... How *exactly* can you "guarantee" that statement? How would you quantify that?

There's pictures of him in grass on this post.

I do agree his comb is a little pale. I would posit though, also that pale faced roosters are not necessarily stressed... Especially given that it's winter right now and he's pretty young still.

 

[EmmaRainboe]

nope. Face is pale. I have plenty of roosters and can tell when one is pale faced. I look at over a hundred every single day. I saw where he goes out on the balcony not outside on the grass but I may have missed where that was previously established.

He goes outside on grass look on the end of page 29, also @Hei 20 said HeiHei has lots of plants he loves to destroy.

 

[roosterhavoc]

It's not a matter of how new it is, it's about hormone levels changing during domestication. If they aren't stressed out, if they're healthy, if they're behaving normally.... How *exactly* can you "guarantee" that statement? How would you quantify that?

There's pictures of him in grass on this post.

I do agree his comb is a little pale. I would posit though, also that pale faced roosters are not necessarily stressed... Especially given that it's winter right now and he's pretty young still.

You can spend all night long justifying keeping chickens in a house with diapers. As I’ve already said I don’t care. How do you guarantee any of your statements? Because you read a study? What if I said I don’t believe the study? Who’s right or wrong? Since you’re hellbent on splitting hairs winter is over a month away.
yes I missed the post where he was on grass.