Russian Orloffs

[RiddleMe]

Yes, mottling is typically a white tip on a solid feather.  I should have been more complete but I was in a hurry.  Sorry. 

Riddleme- I like the breast on that cock in the middle.  Beards combs and legs all look pretty good.  I think that pullet in pic two is really light though.  Is she just hunched or is her neck short?  He speck- welcome- what kind of games are you keeping?  You wouldn't have an Irish Muff would you?

Her neck is actually a decent length, part was pic angle and she was a little hunched. First pic below is a better side shot of her. She is a little lighter that desirable, but not the lightest of the group. The far left pullet in the group shot is the lightest of the bunch, I think of her as my watercolor Orloff. But of course she also has the best type IMO, nice upright stance, deep chest and high shoulder set (see front view pic of her below). Then I have the one pullet who is probably right on wrt color/spangling, but of course she is a little smaller than the others, just doesn't have quite their heft, and while she isn't technically duckfooted, she is awful close to the "not quite right" category. I actually have a few more that look very similar to her, with better size/type, but of course they are also obviously duckfooted so culled to the layer flock.

Here's a few individual pics, of course I am missing one of the pullets... Looking at the previously posted pics I think "PinkLeft" is actually in the group pic, so still missing "OrangeLeft" - what can I say, Home Depot had limited zip tie color choices...

And just for fun, this is one of the culls, he's built very similar to my stocky cockerel, but has feather stubs and obviously doesn't have the desired mahogany color (he really is that orange in person).

edited to add pics, no reason for a new post

 

[speck wilson]

Ash...I keep Asil(several different lines) also bantam asil, Bantam Malay, and lg fowl dark cornish...of course now there are also the orloffs. I personally have never seen an Irish Muff here in the states,but if you wanted to find someone who would know...check the ultimate fowl breeders list. hope that helps!

 

[RiddleMe]

Ash...I keep Asil(several different lines) also bantam asil, Bantam Malay, and lg fowl dark cornish...of course now there are also the orloffs. I personally have never seen an Irish Muff here in the states,but if you wanted to find someone who would know...check the ultimate fowl breeders list. hope that helps!

That same site also has an interesting article from an old yearbook that someone post, don't think I am supposed to link here but just search Breeding Spangles.

 

[ashandvine]

Her neck is actually a decent length, part was pic angle and she was a little hunched. First pic below is a better side shot of her. She is a little lighter that desirable, but not the lightest of the group. The far left pullet in the group shot is the lightest of the bunch, I think of her as my watercolor Orloff. But of course she also has the best type IMO, nice upright stance, deep chest and high shoulder set (see front view pic of her below). Then I have the one pullet who is probably right on wrt color/spangling, but of course she is a little smaller than the others, just doesn't have quite their heft, and while she isn't technically duckfooted, she is awful close to the "not quite right" category. I actually have a few more that look very similar to her, with better size/type, but of course they are also obviously duckfooted so culled to the layer flock.

Here's a few individual pics, of course I am missing one of the pullets... Looking at the previously posted pics I think "PinkLeft" is actually in the group pic, so still missing "OrangeLeft" - what can I say, Home Depot had limited zip tie color choices...


And just for fun, this is one of the culls, he's built very similar to my stocky cockerel, but has feather stubs and obviously doesn't have the desired mahogany color (he really is that orange in person).

Ash...I keep Asil(several different lines) also bantam asil, Bantam Malay, and lg fowl dark cornish...of course now there are also the orloffs. I personally have never seen an Irish Muff here in the states,but if you wanted to find someone who would know...check the ultimate fowl breeders list. hope that helps!

I stewarded a show where there were several bantam Shamo today and that was refreshing. Not very many here. Thanks for the referral. I am newly into the Utlimate Fowl site and still trying to find my way around. I know someone here who has a line on Muffs but its still a pain to get one.

 

[RiddleMe]

Quote: I personally like the tail set/angle on the middle one, and that is how she always carries it. But if the consensus is to go with the ABA standard then none of these have near high enough angle. But that middle one has a feather stub on her right leg, you can see it in the pic, so again, haven't decided if I will use her. Between that and the fluff... at least the stubs are incomplete dominant so as long as I pick chicks with clean legs I think I should be ok, but I could see that fluff being an ongoing issue.

The well spangled one doesn't typically carry her wings low, but that also isn't her totally relaxed position, she isn't as upright as that pic makes her look. I think she was looking at something in the coop. Went out and snapped another picture of her, this is a more relaxed stance, though she is holding her a head a little hunched. But she tends to do that...


Honestly, still not 100% sure I will use any of them, might save myself some time and headache and go with my original plan which was to get some started chicks/birds from a breeder who has already been working on a lot of these things.

 

[ashandvine]

First, the ABA standard is for a bantam. Bantams are not large fowl and somewhere someone got the idea that the tail should sit high. It shouldn't and I stick with that opinion very staunchly. Most of the pics in here are cocks but take a look and tell me if the tails are 'high' like a Jap. http://www.russianorloffclubofgreatbritain.co.uk/id6.html You have decent birds to work with, even from what I have seen at shows back from 2009 up till this NEPCongress. Folks who have had these birds a while are still working with a lot of what you have so don't throw it all out if you don't have to. JMO there but its what I would do. Regarding the toe sprig, just pull it and see if it comes back. It might not, esp if it is a small thing. If the offspring have them then you know not to keep her going in the breeding program... unless there is something else really worth it in her traits. This is not an overnight venture nor it is 'easy' as many folks will want it to be. Big breeders and judges know this and they take the commitment seriously, then share what they are working on with others they know are serious-- usually other judges and preservationists who have shown they will keep working after three years on a project, and then it slowly trickles out to the rest of us a few years later.

 

[RiddleMe]

First, the ABA standard is for a bantam.  Bantams are not large fowl and somewhere someone got the idea that the tail should sit high.  It shouldn't and I stick with that opinion very staunchly.  Most of the pics in here are cocks but take a look and tell me if the tails are 'high' like a Jap.  http://www.russianorloffclubofgreatbritain.co.uk/id6.html  You have decent birds to work with, even from what I have seen at shows back from 2009 up till this NEPCongress.  Folks who have had these birds a while are still working with a lot of what you have so don't throw it all out if you don't have to.  JMO there but its what I would do.  Regarding the toe sprig, just pull it and see if it comes back.  It might not, esp if it is a small thing.  If the offspring have them then you know not to keep her going in the breeding program... unless there is something else really worth it in her traits.  This is not an overnight venture nor it is 'easy' as many folks will want it to be.  Big breeders and judges know this and they take the commitment seriously, then share what they are working on with others they know are serious-- usually other judges and preservationists who have shown they will keep working after three years on a project, and then it slowly trickles out to the rest of us a few years later. 

I have spent a lot of time on that site studying pics and reading the history docs, as well as looking at the sv-orloff site. I agree, it appears their tail sets appear to be more in the 45 degree range. I would be happy to see that in our standard, very few of the APA LF standards require 70, Langshan comes to mind, and I just don't see that U shape meshing with the game look of the Orloff. Given the desired downward slope of the back, it makes even a 45 degree angle appear in strong contrast. I'm not worried about the commitment, I fully intend to be keeping chickens many years from now. It's been fun the last few years figuring out the best husbandry methods for my area, seeing what comes from various pairings of my mixed flock, etc. I know I will enjoy them even more if I have a defined project to work on.

 

[RiddleMe]

I was curious if anyone else does this to better evaluate their birds (got the idea from either the Heritage site or CSU)... This is how I confirmed my first pick cockerel (that's mine on the right, the other two pics are from the SV-orloff site). Though honestly I only had four to choose from and two had obvious reasons to cull (the orange one I've posted before and another with really nice game bird type, but knock knees). I haven't done this for the pullets yet, mostly because I haven't picked comparison pictures... But I'm a visual person and found this very helpful in seeing what I have. Key was just getting a balanced/squared side profile pic, thank goodness for digital cameras!


On a side note, I'd love to see a CSU-type discussion started here, for those who are familiar with that forum. I know a lot of folks are just starting out and don't have mature birds, but if some of the people who have had them for a few years got involved, it might really help the rest of us in figuring out what to look for. Might be a little hard without a standard to refer to, but could still be a good learning exercise. Especially if they also included some of their pairings, the reasons, and the outcomes.

 

[ashandvine]

The insistence that this will all be 'easier' if we use the ABA is really irritating- sorry, just being honest here. This isn't going to be easy no matter what so I really wish that weren't the arguement all the time. Right is right and a squirrel tail on an Orloff is not going to be right.

 

[Canieldonrad]

Problem with the tails when considering the Bantam Standard is this:

A medium size tail, even at a high angle is going to be very hard to get to the Beard/Muff bisect. When you consider the overall type of the bird you have many issues with this wording. You want a lengthy neck, head held high. You want a back that slopes considerably to stern. You want a medium sized tail.

I don't see that really working out in a large fowl. Maybe a bantam, although I would say the tail would still need to be rather long. I don't have a clue why that is even in the standard to begin with.



I would say a generous amount of sloping in the back, with a tail angle of 35 for male and 30 for female would put them in a good place.

anywhooooo here are the Mahogany chicks. A couple of them are starting to look nice but the feet are just not going to be worth the effort. I would not mind trading them with some money for a nice pair/trio of Spangled.


I like the look of this breed a lot. And I feel like the pieces are in place to get the breed going. But the foot problems in Mahogany are just going to be too much of a challenge for me at this time, unless I drop the birds I have right now(which I don't see happening).






If I had to write a standard I would base it off of these two Whites out of Germany, ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. Of course their tails are a bit higher, around 60 for the male and 55 for the female it seems.