Russian Orloffs

[CluckyCharms]

Very interesting; thanks all.

So - correct me if I'm wrong, but when I do get my Orloffs, the only way I'm going to successfully (or at least make a start of it) get them back to what they once were, would be to find some stellar examples of malays and get those as well - and breed the two breeds? I've heard Malays are vicious.

However - how exactly do you cross a malay with an orloff and somehow end up with a purebred Orloff in the end? That whole thing confuses me. Does anyone know of a reputable Malay breeder?

I don't understand why people have to keep messing with breeds in the first place - isn't that how the Orloff (and a lot of other breeds) became something else entirely?? And wouldn't I be further messing with the breed by breeding to another breed (the Malay)? I'm very confused (and ignorant) and could really use someone(s) to "school me" on this.

I don't mind projects (breeding thing 1 and thing 2) because quite frankly, I adore some of the project birds I've seen. BUT - why can't those who do projects also make sure they're helping to keep the original breeds as they are, too? (


I believe I am becoming FAR too obsessed with chickens to continue living in an urban environment - we may have to move.

 

[ashandvine]

Its amazing what happens when I go away for a day! All these golden feathers and new faces come in with lots of interest, wow.
Welcome to all the new personalities!

"Predatory' is the term for the look of the Orloff. Their appearance has often been compared with predatory birds given their slighty hooked beak, heavy brow and lack of significant comb. In taking the breed seriously you have to look at their type first and foremost and then their color. Sadly, egg laying right now is last on my list for now. I have seen Mr Chris 's bird/crosses before. They are very similar to the type that is still to be found in the EU. Original Russian Orloffs were not just black. That particular variety is nearly lost in the world, if not totally lost at this point. I have a woman trying to find them among her friends still living in what was Russia, but its tough going.

Regarding the shanks and colors and all that; Four primary colors black, spangled, mahogany, and white. Leg color- yellow. i have found standards to say willow, slate, yellow... its all a bit wishy washy depending on the source. Looking into the breed will quickly bring you up short unless you have a lot of linguistic skills or know how to use google translate. (hint hint) At some point these birds lost their significant upright stature to look a lot more like the Sussex. There are beautiful prints and paintings showing the serious expression and upright stature of these 'proud looking birds'. Where is NC when you need lots of facts??

Orloffs were dropped because there were not enough of them regularly being shown. "Lack of interest" as MFB stated and a significant lack of volume. In fact, MFB gave a good overview. They are a great dual purpose bird but need a lot of work to meet standard and before that there is the effort to get their numbers up and not just poor quality ones. There are a few of us with some nice dark birds and upright posture. A few is better than none. (I have Dorkings too so the idea of a bird nearly going extinct in the US or anywhere is pretty real to me.)

As a quick aside for the regulars, "Fido" is the name of a pullet from Mr Casper whom my son has just fallen for. This foolish bird now comes when he calls it (slapping his knees like he would for a dog, hence her name) and she is nearly always underfoot. Well, she upped the anti the last two days. I found her hopping up the inside house steps clearly meaning to follow us in. Yesterday I was clearing a spot in the van for the dog and heard an odd sound. I turned to find Fido perched in the van looking for a spot to hang out. I put her out and she turned around and came back in-- two more times before I put her back over the fence! Someone said birds they got from Mr Casper are 'personable.' That phrase doesn't quite cover the kind of 'best friend' this bird is trying to be!

 

[Pozees]

Very interesting; thanks all.

So - correct me if I'm wrong, but when I do get my Orloffs, the only way I'm going to successfully (or at least make a start of it) get them back to what they once were, would be to find some stellar examples of malays and get those as well - and breed the two breeds? I've heard Malays are vicious.

However - how exactly do you cross a malay with an orloff and somehow end up with a purebred Orloff in the end? That whole thing confuses me. Does anyone know of a reputable Malay breeder?

I don't understand why people have to keep messing with breeds in the first place - isn't that how the Orloff (and a lot of other breeds) became something else entirely?? And wouldn't I be further messing with the breed by breeding to another breed (the Malay)? I'm very confused (and ignorant) and could really use someone(s) to "school me" on this.

I don't mind projects (breeding thing 1 and thing 2) because quite frankly, I adore some of the project birds I've seen. BUT - why can't those who do projects also make sure they're helping to keep the original breeds as they are, too? (


I believe I am becoming FAR too obsessed with chickens to continue living in an urban environment - we may have to move.

I have no experience with breeding chickens, but my understanding of the outcrossing to different breeds is that all breeds in existence were developed over time using a variety of crosses, whether recently or centuries ago. When pure lines available no longer meet the standard or have flaws that can be corrected by bringing back in one of the foundation breeds, in this case the Malay back into the Orloff (I read that the Malay is possibly one of the foundation breeds used to develop the Orloff), then it makes sense and speeds return to the standard. This can still be done in chickens because there is no registry, whereas in dogs, only AKC registered offspring of registered parents can be shown at AKC dog shows for championship points, and used in a breeding program that intends to produce AKC-registerable offspring. In thoroughbreds, offspring must be produced from natural mating of two registered parents if they are to be registered with the Jockey Club. In chickens there still exists the luxury of bringing a foundation breed back in, and then you carefully select offspring to breed together, preferably having started with two different lines or more, until you get nearer standard birds who can consistently produce offspring that look like the parents.

 

[Pozees]

The biggest problem that I see with most (80 to 90%) of the Orloffs I see on here is that they have poor type, I believe this holds true for birds that where at on time out crossed to the incorrect breed and now the breeders are fighting incorrect back and tail angle.

If you want to correct the type of the Orloff you are going to have to find good Malays and cross into them, there is a reason that the Orloff was at one time considered a Bearded Malay type Fowl and it is because the Orloff in fact looked very much a Malay with a Beard.

This is one of my crosses, he has improved type, size and feather over the average Orloff that you tend to see.




Chris

He is very handsome!

 

[mississippifarmboy]

The biggest problem that I see with most (80 to 90%) of the Orloffs I see on here is that they have poor type, I believe this holds true for birds that where at on time out crossed to the incorrect breed and now the breeders are fighting incorrect back and tail angle.

If you want to correct the type of the Orloff you are going to have to find good Malays and cross into them, there is a reason that the Orloff was at one time considered a Bearded Malay type Fowl and it is because the Orloff in fact looked very much a Malay with a Beard.

This is one of my crosses, he has improved type, size and feather over the average Orloff that you tend to see.




Chris

That's the picture I was talking about Chris. I looked all over for the darn thing...

The birds I remember my uncle having looked very much like this one. The hens were much more spangled, but the roosters looked a lot like this bird and had this upright carriage and the "full" neck. They weighed I'm guessing around 7 pounds on his hens and around 9 to 10 pounds on mature roosters.

Thanks for posting it again Chris. Also good to see NYREDS posting. Both are very knowledgeable and I've learned a lot from their posts.

One of the things I remember reading somewhere was that the mahogany Russians had the deepest color of any mahogany chicken. Can't remember where I read it and most of my research notes are on my old computer that crashed, but I've been breeding towards the darker mahogany. This year I finally have a pullet with the color I was shooting for.

edited to add;
Chris, are you still working with this cross? I would love to see more pictures if you are. That is a fine looking bird.

 

[mississippifarmboy]

The Russians that were in the early Standards were not at all like the Spangled Russian Orloffs somtimes seen in shows today. The Russians were a black, rose-combed bird with dark slate shanks & a very different body type. They are, in short, two distinctly different birds.
I'm not sure exactly when the Russians were dropped from the Standard but it was before 1905. They are in my 1894 edition but not in my 1898 edition so it was in there somewhere.
As to their "critical" listing, both the ALBC & the SPPA rely on members self-reporting to determine population levels. There could, for arguements sake, be 20,000 flocks of Spangled Orloffs in the country but if only 3 of those flocks were owned by group members who responded to census questions they would be deemed to be "critical". I don't want to take anything away from either group as they do good work but their data gathering methods leave a lot to be desired.

Thanks for the info and the correction on the dates. I always learn from your posts. I haven't seen a SOP before 1905, but the one I saw from about there I knew they weren't listed in.
I also agree that the ALBC and the SPPA need better data gathering methods, but as you said, they do good work bringing attention to some of the old breeds.

In your opinion as a judge and breeder... What breeds do you think make up the modern version of the LF spangled Orloffs and what are the odds they will ever be admitted as a breed to the SOP if ever?

Personally I feel that most look like hatchery speckled Sussex with incorrect combs and leg color. And I'm not knocking anyone's birds, I'm including most of my own here too.

 

[CluckyCharms]

Thanks for the info and the correction on the dates. I always learn from your posts. I haven't seen a SOP before 1905, but the one I saw from about there I knew they weren't listed in.
I also agree that the ALBC and the SPPA need better data gathering methods, but as you said, they do good work bringing attention to some of the old breeds.

In your opinion as a judge and breeder... What breeds do you think make up the modern version of the LF spangled Orloffs and what are the odds they will ever be admitted as a breed to the SOP if ever?

Personally I feel that most look like hatchery speckled Sussex with incorrect combs and leg color. And I'm not knocking anyone's birds, I'm including most of my own here too.

x2 ... would like to know what breeds make up the current version since they don't look anything like the "oldies" pictures I've seen. They're beautiful, really they are, but if they're going to be called Russian Orloffs I think they should look like they did when they were first recognized, no? They're not recognized anymore, but that doesn't mean it should be okay for them to look like something else entirely.

(just my opinion which is newbie)

 

[Chris09]

x2 ... would like to know what breeds make up the current version since they don't look anything like the "oldies" pictures I've seen. They're beautiful, really they are, but if they're going to be called Russian Orloffs I think they should look like they did when they were first recognized, no? They're not recognized anymore, but that doesn't mean it should be okay for them to look like something else entirely.

(just my opinion which is newbie)

Most of the Spangled Orloffs that are out there are heavy with Speckled Sussex and Mahogany may have Rhode Island Red bred into them both will kill the the breed type of the Orloff.

Chris

 

[Chris09]

Chris, are you still working with this cross? I would love to see more pictures if you are. That is a fine looking bird.

I no longer have Orloffs but have been thinking about getting back into them.

Chris

 

[RedDrgn]

Wow! I knew that a lot of them currently available on the market had conformance issues, but I didn't realize just how far off they've wandered over the years.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know when these deviations began? I'm assuming they were perpetuated simply because the breed was never terribly popular in this country and very few people bothered to pay much attention.