Sad Update on Haley :( 3 wk old chick sneezing turned worse

[kisat]

Thanks for the help

Bedding is only pillowcases, and a few washcloths underneath. Enough so it's about an inch thick for them.

It's an aquarium, but the ventilation was a big concern of mine too. One is an old reptile cage. The top is a screen. The other is glass, but it doesn't cover the entire area. But, I do change the bedding every other day, sometimes every day, just because of the risk of fungus and such. That's one of my biggest concerns because of the heat and water aspect. But thanks for making sure

 

[dlhunicorn]

I would disinfect that THORoughly...mold etc is extremely difficult to get out and the condensation and heat provides the ideal groth medium for sporulation.

 

[kisat]

Okay. I will do that. Thank you

 

[kisat]

Update and info on what could've happened. I'm not 100%, but the info could help someone else out. I do know that it had nothing to do with fungus. The constant air flow, the fact that it never stayed wet long enough to grow any kind of mold, aquariums were clean before usage, all of it. Great suggestion and help though.

Okay, so now two days after I lost my bantam, I've lost Haley. She died at 6 pm. Same thing with the bantam. I didn't think she would make it through last night, but she did. I've been feeding her basically a liquid diet because she was getting so weak that she couldn't 'eat' her scratch. So I ground it up with oatmeal, added water to make it soup, let it sit a bit, then warmed it slightly and gave it to her. I figured, even if she couldn't 'eat' her food, she could sip it up. I was also using the electrolyte water to mix it up, then the vitamin water to use as her drinking water. I kept her with me because she was feeling slightly cold, as did Ruby, before she died. Kept going back and forth all day holding on to her for quite some time.

Then, I went in there at 5:30 to give her some more of her 'soup' and she tried. She was a fighter and a half. She shouldn't have even made it this long. She would get better, worse, better, worse, etc. She kept trying to eat for momma as if she wanted try. Even though her food intake kept up, she kept losing weight. The Poly-vi-sol baby vitamins never really helped her too much. She did stop the diarrhea. She had a couple hard poopies, but still I had to clean her bottom once in a while.

Anyway, she couldn't drink any longer and saw her taking harder breaths so I stopped and told her that she could let go. And that her mommy was there. I saw her suffering from spasms as her heart was giving out and she was watching me so I told her that I was there and kissed her head and eyes. Then, at 6 pm she gave it up.

Man, it's one big emotional roller coaster the past week for me.

But, something occurred to me last night. Cedar chips. I completely forgot that they all were exposed for nearly a week when they were babies to cedar chips. That's what our feed store had them on. So it got me thinking. Okay. I know that they are bad. I know that they cause problems. So I investigated. This may or may not be the problem. I don't know how long that it would take to manifest, but I wonder if this is what happened.

Cedar Chip poisoning. People are always saying it's bad to use Cedar Chips. Here is why. Cedar oil. Cedar oil causes liver damage to animals. Humans too.

* The scented oils in the shavings can affect the animal's metabolism and liver function, and possibly induce cancer or precancerous lesions, especially on the liver;

* The shavings can cause allergic reactions and/or asthma, and trigger asthma attacks, in humans and in the animals.

From here - http://members.aol.com/bunrabtoo/cedar.html

Here is symptoms of liver disease. Now this is for dogs, but I would say that most are similar to chickens. And, a lot of these symtpoms I experienced with both Haley and Ruby.

Common Presenting Symptoms:

All, some, or only one of these signs may be present.

1. Intermittent recurrent abdominal or gastrointestinal upsets. loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation.
2. Progressive depression or lethargy. does not want to play anymore or refuses to go for walks.
3. Swollen belly with a "fluid filled" look. This is also known as ascites and is actually fluid accumulation in the belly due to circulation alterations in the abdomen.
4. Pale gray feces. Bile pigments are what gives poop it's characteristic brown colour and if the liver is not processing bile properly, the feces will not get their colour.
5. Orange urine. The improper processing of bile results in the excretion of bilirubin in the urine in high amounts, thus orange urine.
6. Jaundice, also known as icterus. Any pale or white skin or visible tissue takes on a yellow hue. Again the biliary pigments are accumulating in the body because the liver is not processing them.
7. Rarely: bleeding problems. Many of the proteins required for proper blood clotting are created in the liver. Remove these proteins and blood clotting decreases.
8. Hepatic encephalopathy, or severe neurological signs. behavioural changes, seizures, aimless pacing or circling, head pressing. May be associated with meal time.
9. Pain associated with the abdomen. This is due to the stretching of the liver capsule. May be noted when the dog is lifted around the belly or when the veterinarian probes (palpates) the abdomen. The veterinarian may also notice a swollen liver while palpating with some of the more acute liver diseases.
10. Chronic weight loss or wasting. The liver processes all the building blocks. If it fails to process, the body fails to maintain itself.
11. Increased water consumption and urination. Most likely due to dramatic shifts in serum and kidney salt balances. May be behavioural too.

From here http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/liverdisease.htm

And finally,

Lymphoid Leukosis (Big liver disease), Virus. Egg borne or transmitted to very young chicks from infected older birds. Weight loss. Green droppings, tumors, enlarged liver. Sick birds usually die. Deformed, thickened leg bones. Prevention-Brood away from older chicks. Treatment-None.

From here http://www.welphatchery.com/poultry_health.asp

Here's some more. I'll just keep updating this one post spot with any info I find, rather than simply adding to the pages. That way, people don't have to search through the pages. It will stay on this one...

There is strong scientific evidence that pine and cedar shavings are harmful to the health of rodents. Both these softwood shavings give off aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) and acids that are toxic. The phenols, which give the shavings their scent, are the reason that cedar repels fleas and moths and why pine-oil is the major ingredient in Pine-sol brand disinfectant. In the laboratory, autoclaved pine and cedar shavings have been shown to inhibit the growth of micro-organisms (Reference 1). When animals are exposed to softwood shavings the aromatic hydrocarbons are absorbed through the respiratory tract and enter the blood.



The acids given off by pine and cedar shavings are very damaging to the respiratory tract. These acids can actually destroy cells that line the lungs and trachea (2). This has significant implications for rats since the most common diseases in pet rats are respiratory infections. Many owners of pet rats have reported the improvement of respiratory problems when they have switched their pets to a bedding other than pine or cedar shavings.

Pine and cedar toxins also affect humans and other animals. People who work in cedar and pine sawmills have a much higher incidence of asthma compared to workers in other dusty environments or those without any dust exposure (3, 4). Another study found that chickens kept on softwood shavings had a higher incidence of respiratory infections (5).

From here http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html -> This one is really informative.

Links with more info
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2b.htm
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/1/liver-disease.html - Litterboxes and Liver Disease
http://www.geocities.com/heavyhitter1.geo/Pine.html - > This one even suggests against Pine Shavings as well.
http://www.afrma.org/pdfposters/cedrpine.pdf
http://www.earthplatform.com/cedar/shavings?Terms=cedar shavings&rpp=10&start=0&nofilter= --> Just a bunch of articles on cedar shavings and warnings.

Oh, here's something pretty well also.

Dr. Richard Evans, a veterinary pathologist who is also associated with the Orange County (CA) Department of Public Health, responded to this question by discussing laboratory findings and practical experience in the use of cedar shavings as has been found by study and anecdotal evidence involving rodents, cage birds and poultry.

Dr. Evans states that the extracts of cedar and other soft woods, such as pine, contain a number of aromatic (volatile) compounds including hydrocarbons, cedrene and cadrol. Naphthalene (the active ingredient in moth balls) is also a member but is a distinct compound.

These compounds are known irritants of skin, and cause not only irritation, but the degeneration and death of the cells in the respiratory tract. Once this destruction is set in motion, the animals' defensive barrier is eroded, enabling infection by various microorganisms and secondary microbial infections of the lungs. The medical literature notes increased rates of respiratory infections found in poultry which is raised with cedar shavings in the poultry house. Owners of caged birds have noted similar infection rates, particularly in poorly ventilated areas.

In addition to the skin irritation and respiratory tract damage, these compounds activate enzymes in the liver which results in abnormal metabolism of certain drugs, something especially critical for animals undergoing antibiotic therapy or surgery.

Dr. Evans notes that there is also some evidence to indicate that reproductive rates may be affected, and cancers promoted, through prolonged contact with these compounds. And, as with any other chemical or disease condition, the very young and very old are especially at risk.

Symptoms of irritation include clear to discolored fluids discharged from eyes and nose (which may be mistaken for a regular microbial respiratory infection), sneezing, coughing, constant blinking or other signs of light sensitivity, irregular breathing (dyspnea) and possibly regurgitation. In severe cases, the animal may fall unconscious with or without convulsions. Secondary bacterial, viral and fungal infections are all the more likely to attack once the cells of the respiratory system are damaged and destroyed.

From here http://www.anapsid.org/cedar.html




Again, I don't know if this IS what happened, but the symptoms I've seen make me wonder. So I thought, at least, this will help people who wonder why not to use cedar chips, why is cedar bad, and all that.

Just like with Ruby. Thank you all so much for the help though. I truly appreciate it. The bright side though is that I still have Chase (still hoping it's a girl!) and Amara. Their sisters may be gone, but I still have them and they seem to be great so far. I think they have the benefit of having gained strength and growth faster than the other two so whatever happened to Ruby and Haley, hasn't happened to them. Amara is NHR Haley's sister. Chase is Bantam sibling to Ruby.​

 

[sammi]

yes, cedar shouldn't be used for bedding with chickens.

you mentioned "scratch"...is that the corn mixture?
or are you calling chick feed "scratch"?

 

[augiedranch]

im sorry about the little one dying. you did all you could do. and you were with her. thats really sad im so sorry.

how are the other ones doing?

 

[dlhunicorn]

I do believe you have hit on the solution to your mystery

sorry you lost her...

 

[kisat]

Quote:
Yeh I know that from years of having (when I was younger) hamsters and such. My mom bought a big bag from the feed store and my nagging instincts reminded me before I opened it that NO we CAN NOT use it. So to be clear I looked it up and reminded her and myself why. She told me that [as I read on here before from someonehvaing the same experience] that the feed store told her it was what they had their chicks on and they recommended it. Grr. I got regular pine, but they wanted eat it. As soon as I noticed that, I took it all back out before they ate too much and I switched over to simple pillowcases with towels underneath. That way I could keep them clean and yet be able to clean the bedding every 1 or 2 days. But, it was almost an entire week they were on those cedar chips and if they tried eating the pine chips I had given them for that moment (they are almost 5 weeks now so it was over 3 weeks(?) I've had them and that I switched off any kind of bedding other than the towel/pillowcase bedding), then I know they must've injested those cedar chips while at the feed store

Sorry, my brain wasn't working right last night. And, anyone reading my posts might recognize that I said they're on chick starter, but my words always come out as 'scratch.' Just something my brain wants say, but I should make sure I'm more clear so as not to confuse. Sorry about the mix up - They are on medicated chick starter.

 

[kisat]

augiedranch
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Thank you for asking. Well, as for their emotional state. I think they are having as hard a time as I am with her passing - they are being fairly quiet this morning. She's hit me the hardest, even though I adored Ruby as well, but there was something about Haley.

As for their health, Amara (NHR) seems to be having a little diarrhea (giving her some electrolytes which is helping), but I think that since her and the other bantam grew faster than the other two and were bigger to begin with, they seem to so far be good. I haven't noticed the other bantam have any issues as of yet - been completely healthy all the way, but since all four of them came from the same feed store and same bedding, I guess we will see with them. They were purchased at different times from the store as well. We got the NHR's two days after the bantams.

It's funny. My mom was telling her friend last night about the passing of Haley and said she wouldn't do it again. Honestly, I'll still do it all over again. And I will if I want replace these two with two others. It's not about forgetting them as much as just moving on. I'm more angry that these two little girls didn't get to have the life that I would've been able to give to them and that angers me. Saddens and angers. But, I believe everything happens for a reason and at the very least, this had made me sure that for one I will be making sure the feed store understands what happens from cedar chips - I have no problems with them, they've just been uninformed - and hopefully somebody will learn what can happen if that is what caused this.

dlhunicorn
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I really am thinking this is what it was. Nothing else explains it since if it were something contagious, the other two would've been sick by now as well. I'm surprised they haven't gotten sick too. But, I'm happy that they haven't. Course these are also the two strongest little boogers too

You've helped me so much dlhunicorn so thanks. I swear. You need to be called a chicken guru

I see your name on other forums that I've been scouring for tips and help in all this and in raising my chickies.

 

[SpottedCrow]

I'm so sorry your lost your other baby too...
They both went know loving care and that always makes crossing easier.

((hugs))