Same old question, new thread. Sustainable Alternative to Cornish Cross?

[HenriettaPizzaNolan]

Chiming in late, but have you considered Delawares? I don't have any (yet) but to my understanding they were the premier meatbird before Cornish Xs came onto the scene. The males are a slow-growing meaty and the females are good layers that can be stew meat after laying age.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The premiere meat birds in the US before the Cornish X took over were Delaware, New Hampshire, and certain strains of White Rock. Not sure what breeds had the UK market. But in the 1950's when the Cornish X took over the meat market they stopped breeding these breeds for meat and they became just normal dual-purpose breeds. Nothing spectacular. They lost the edge that had made them good meat birds. Some breeders have bred them to be good meat birds, they may have exceeded what the originals were. Some of those breeders are mentioned in this thread. One of those would be a good choice. But a typical hatchery Delaware is nothing special as a meat bird. They haven't been bred for meat for about 70 years.

 

[NonnieNonna]

Same old answer; not really.

Your best meat bird is pretty much always going to be a crossbred. I've had good results with a fast-maturing White Leghorn or California White rooster over "dual purpose" hens, but you lose that fast growth and breastiness in the next generation - F2s are always, always inconsistent. It's a simple fact of crossbreeding. The cross I mentioned is worth the trouble of butchering them out between 12 and 16 weeks in that you'll get something besides thighs. I flat refuse to raise a meat bird for longer than that, and I honestly resent having to feed them as long as 16 weeks - that's a LOT of feed!!

And, everyone who bothers to do the math learns that it is way, WAY cheaper to buy CX chicks when you want them rather than maintain a breeding flock all year - and especially a breeding flock of large, heavy birds who eat a lot and tend not to lay well - for the relatively few chicks you are going to raise. The big producers manage it by the magic of "economics of scale" and a constant rotation of their breeders into pot pie.

And speaking of math and going back to the feed thing I mentioned - and my time, raising and butchering. And meat-to bone ratio. And waste per bird. And heat for the brooder (CX chicks come off heat MUCH faster). And having my meat coop space taken up for twice as long - it just doesn't add up.
Listen, it takes me as much time to butcher some scrawny thing as it does a fat roaster. The less efficient birds have a higher percentage of feathers, bone and innards to dispose of than the meaties, and I have to butcher more of them to get the same amount of meat, so I end up with as much as 3x the mess to dispose of. CX I can start to butcher at 6 weeks, or take them to 8 for big birds, so my meat bird space has, tops, an 8 week turnover time. Less efficient birds will be filling that coop for twice as long, so even if I can fit half again as many of them in the space (say, the coop holds 10 CX, but 15 NotCX) over a 16 week period I can raise 20 6# CX versus 15 3.5# NotCX. That's 120# vs 52.5# for the same amount of time, coop space, cleaning, bedding, butchering. The CX will eat an average of 1.25 lbs a week, each, and the NotCX will only eat 1, but the CX are gone in 8 and the NotCX are on my feed bill for 16, so that's 10lbs to raise a CX and 16lbs to raise a smaller bird.
It just doesn't add up.
And then to add maintaining a breeding flock on top of that? And you can't even say "Well, they'd also be my laying flock" because they will lay less eggs for more food and of course you're not getting any egg you want to hatch a chick from. And if you want them to raise their own chicks, it's even worse because then that hen isn't laying anything for at least 6 weeks, plus the 2 weeks worth of eggs you want her sitting on, so that's 8 weeks of eggs lost per batch of chicks.

I don't know about you, but there's other stuff I'd rather waste time and money on.

Wow, thank you for your thoughts on this. Very helpful to a newbie trying to make a choice on dual vs meat/layers.

 

[NonnieNonna]

I haven't, but I'm going to give it a shot. I have a Buff Cornish rooster and some White Leghorn hens, and when I can set up some grow out pens, the plan is to raise them out, keep records and do the math. Someone mentioned that their 3 heavy hens would pump out 14 eggs a week - 3 WL will do 21 in a week, as will Sex Links, and BRs or Buff Orps will do about 18, which makes cross-breeding the way to go, unless you really just want a project. Also, all of those are bred for early maturity, and if you want to raise meat birds, you really, REALLY want to breed HARD for early maturity. Otherwise you have birds that grow frame rather than meat (or eggs)

I'm not thinking that the Buff Cornish/WL cross will be amazing, but I enjoy genetics and math, and then I'll have that data for when people ask, because honestly I can't think of a better way to get decent breast meat on a non-CX.

Just a bit of advice, from someone who's been doing this a while, and sold to the public. You *might* be able to sell "heritage type" chickens at your farm stand, if you market heavily and have access to clientele making at least 60k a year. Grocery stores and ESPECIALLY restaurants need absolutely consistent product. The first time you send a chef a bird with extra dark thighs or a thin breast and they go "I can't sell this" is the last time you sell anything to that restaurant, or any restaurant in town as soon as the word gets out, and it will. You will have to be able to send them 20, 4# birds a week, who, if parted out will give X weight of breast and X weight of thigh and drums, which should cook up to X shade consistently (Or whatever number and weight they order). Because if there are 2 people at the table who ordered the chicken and they're going "Mine is really dark, is yours dark?", "That one is bigger" you're out of business.

Also, please know that Joel Salatin's hobby is raising birds, his multi-million dollar business is selling books and appearances.

Well, my meat birds are always healthy until I butcher them, happy as clams for 8 weeks and are very productive of meat. If you want a meat bird that produces eggs, and that's what's important to you - go for it! I wish you success, please keep records and share them! I just want to point out;
I've been a member of this forum for 12 years, and the forum is older than that. Plenty of time to develop a breed. There are over 15,000 threads in Meat Birds, and at least half of them are about "I don't want to raise CX because I hate/don't understand a terminal cross." Not One of those people have come back here going "Success!!!"
The best you'll hear is "Well, I have X and they do ok, I raise them for 5-6 months and they're way more expensive, but we don't eat a lot of chicken and I'm happy with it, which is what matters."

Now, yes, if they're happy, that's what matters! But for your goals, nobody - and really, nobody - is selling any significant amount of meat from birds they keep a breeder flock of. You have people selling Freedom Rangers - which you're also buying chicks to do - and people who sell a couple of their specialty birds here and there, but absolutely no one who is paying the feed bill with meat sales of birds they bred and raised. 0%.

But, hey, maybe it can be done! Maybe you'll read through and see a gap the rest of us haven't. It happens! I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. Just make sure you check out what at least 7,000 people right here have been up to for well over a decade - that's a lot of education, y'know?

Your insight is much appreciated and extremely helpful!

 

[Hawklynn23]

I like this idea. It is similar to what I am doing with the NHs and Delawares. The cross makes a nice, meaty dual purpose sex link. Eat the boys and sell the girls.

What age do you butcher and what are their weights?

 

[Tre3hugger]

I detailed the results here https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/my-attempt-at-a-dual-purpose-heritage-flock.1489689/

What age do you butcher and what are their weights?

 

[Hawklynn23]

I detailed the results here https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/my-attempt-at-a-dual-purpose-heritage-flock.1489689/

Do you still have this heritage meat bird program going?

I would like to buy several of your pure New Hampshire and then a couple Delaware chicks also if you do. I’m looking for in the spring, not ready for them right now. In process of building their yard and house.

 

[Tre3hugger]

Do you still have this heritage meat bird program going?

I would like to buy several of your pure New Hampshire and then a couple Delaware chicks also if you do. I’m looking for in the spring, not ready for them right now. In process of building their yard and house.

It is very likely I will have the NHs available in the spring. The Delawares less likely. I am located in Massachusetts.

 

[Hawklynn23]

It is very likely I will have the NHs available in the spring. The Delawares less likely. I am located in Massachusetts.

Are you able to ship live chicks?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Have you looked at Asian Blacks? I have a pair and they produce Mr. And Mrs. Chunks when paired to smaller birds. I can only imagine if they were put together they would make even larger chicks