Scratch Grains Vs Mealworms

[U_Stormcrow]

Many of us train the same behaviors by throwing a handful of nutritionally complete feed.

The only time I scatter "Scratch" is when its a seed collection I wouldn't mind seeing growing in the pasture. and I do it out of sight of the birds - who frequently find it anyways, the next day.

 

[Perris]

Source? Their birds are no more true free range than mine (which I suppose means that mine are true free range), and the website link says only that they are fed non-GMO cereals, not that they are whole grain. Nor does it establish why you find it appropriate to draw a connection between scratch and whole grains - that's like comparing peas and bean bag beeds, because both are round.

Here in the US, at least, where definitions are "fluid", the difference between Scratch and a Complete feed, nutritionally, are usually quite stark - even where that scratch is made from non-GMO whole cereal grains and non GMO corn, usually cracked.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying the link doesn't support the contention, and I'd like to read further.

We don't have scratch here and different posters seem to be referring to somewhat variable things there, but they all seem to involve grains such as wheat, barley, oats. I do not think they are so far from 'grain' to justify your dismissive peas and beans.
The French are very particular about their gastronomic standards and categories, and the Loue brand is renowned. Perhaps this site will satisfy your requirements better than the other one I linked to, https://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/label-rouge-pasturebased-poultry-production-in-france Failing that, how's your French?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

We don't have scratch here and different posters seem to be referring to somewhat variable things there, but they all seem to involve grains such as wheat, barley, oats. I do not think they are so far from 'grain' to justify your dismissive peas and beans.
The French are very particular about their gastronomic standards and categories, and the Loue brand is renowned. Perhaps this site will satisfy your requirements better than the other one I linked to, https://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/label-rouge-pasturebased-poultry-production-in-france Failing that, how's your French?

"D". about the same as my Spanish. Better than my Latin.

Sounds like a translation issue. "Scratch" here is almost always largely (cracked) corn with some adjuncts for variety - milo, millet (red, usually), BOSS, sometimes barley, oats, or soft wheat. Nutritionally, it tends to sit around 7.5-9% protein, 5%-8% fiber. It doesn't pretend to be a complete feed.

For comparison, we are usually arguing over whether or not 18% or 20% protein is the best complete feed for your flock, offering feeds with high concentrations of wheat, soy, sometimes non-plant proteins such as fish, shrimp meal, porcine blood meal, etc.

As the EU generally gets by on amino acid supplimented complete feeds in the 14-16% protein range, the differences between the feeds and scratch are much less stark, I'm sure. In England, what we call "Scratch" is what they call "Mixed Corn" - and no one would pretend they can successfully raise, free range or otherwise, healthy birds on "Mixed Corn", nor mistake it for a traditional feed or even a vegan feed.

and having read the link, I state confidently that my birds are raised to higher standard than their own. I do see where you would be left with the impression that they are fed only whole grains, however. That doesn't seem to be the case, but its certainly written in a way to encourage that belief.

 

[Perris]

actually I was thinking of this bit, in particular point 5

"The standards are a base-line that many Label Rouge filieres surpass. For example, some groups:​

• use dividers in the house to break down flocks into smaller groups
• require tree and bush plantings to integrate the house into the countryside as well as provide shade on pasture
• use smaller, portable houses
• do not permit pesticide use on the range
• require grit and whole grains to improve gut health, and
• maintain a constant ration to keep the taste of the birds constant, not changing it when other ingredients are less expensive."

 

[Perris]

"Mixed Corn", nor mistake it for a traditional feed

So what is the difference between your 'mixed corn' and your 'traditional feed'?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So what is the difference between your 'mixed corn' and your 'traditional feed'?

"Mixed Corn" is basically our "Scratch". Its low protein, incomplete amino acid profile, mostly corn blend which provides some energy, some entertainment, and not much else.

Our "traditional feed" is a blend of ingredients - often corn, but with a lot of wheat and usually soy or another legume, sometimes a small amount of barley, oats, and seeds, plus further suppliments intended to provide a complete protein (in terms of its amino acid profile), roughly twice as protein dense as the typical scratch, with a fat content around 3.5% +/-. a similar fiber content, and providing a number of vitamins and minerals in at least minimal basis - calcium, phosphorus, niacin and other Bs, selenium,. vit A, D, lineolic acid, etc...

 

[U_Stormcrow]

actually I was thinking of this bit, in particular point 5

"The standards are a base-line that many Label Rouge filieres surpass. For example, some groups:​

• use dividers in the house to break down flocks into smaller groups
• require tree and bush plantings to integrate the house into the countryside as well as provide shade on pasture
• use smaller, portable houses
• do not permit pesticide use on the range
• require grit and whole grains to improve gut health, and
• maintain a constant ration to keep the taste of the birds constant, not changing it when other ingredients are less expensive."

Yes, great summary - but when you look at the details, it shows that birds are only fed, per their standards, at least 50% or 75% cereal grains - that's a whole lot else that isn't a whole grain, whatever else it might be. As I said, the website seems crafted to say a true thing in a way that leaves a false impression. The grains being offered may be whole, sure, but they aren't the whole of the diet... Its also prefaced with the weasel words, "some groups".

Just as the feed isn't supposed to be medicated, but coccidiostats are allowed. Here in the US, when you seem "medicated" on a feed bag, the very vast majoprity of the time it means added Amprolium, a coccidiostat.

French Red Label birds have great PR, may taste very good, but when you look closely at the details, the guarantees aren't that much better than most.

Stocking density less than one square foot per bird? Buildings of 4,000+ square feet? We call those "battery hens". The only real difference is that the red label battery birds are slower growth than our CX, and have to go outside into the leaf litter to find some of their food, for a few hours daily, after they've reached 6 weeks of age, with the aim of harvesting a 4.4# processed bird around week 14-16, compared to the US week 8-12.

/edit I will grant that the red labels aren't stacked on top of one another, as the worst of the US Battery practices used to be - but that method has lagrgely been abandoned here - caused more problems than it saved in space.

 

[Perris]

"Mixed Corn" is basically our "Scratch". Its low protein, incomplete amino acid profile, mostly corn blend which provides some energy, some entertainment, and not much else.

Our "traditional feed" is a blend of ingredients - often corn, but with a lot of wheat and usually soy or another legume, sometimes a small amount of barley, oats, and seeds, plus further suppliments intended to provide a complete protein (in terms of its amino acid profile), roughly twice as protein dense as the typical scratch, with a fat content around 3.5% +/-. a similar fiber content, and providing a number of vitamins and minerals in at least minimal basis - calcium, phosphorus, niacin and other Bs, selenium,. vit A, D, lineolic acid, etc...

I was hoping for ingredients rather than nutritional profile.

The latter doesn't sound very traditional to me - soya has only been in since meat was removed, for example, and that was in 1994 here.

 

[Perris]

Yes, great summary - but when you look at the details, it shows that birds are only fed, per their standards, at least 50% or 75% cereal grains - that's a whole lot else that isn't a whole grain, whatever else it might be. As I said, the website seems crafted to say a true thing in a way that leaves a false impression. The grains being offered may be whole, sure, but they aren't the whole of the diet... Its also prefaced with the weasel words, "some groups".

Just as the feed isn't supposed to be medicated, but coccidiostats are allowed. Here in the US, when you seem "medicated" on a feed bag, the very vast majoprity of the time it means added Amprolium, a coccidiostat.

French Red Label birds have great PR, may taste very good, but when you look closely at the details, the guarantees aren't that much better than most.

Stocking density less than one square foot per bird? Buildings of 4,000+ square feet? We call those "battery hens". The only real difference is that the red label battery birds are slower growth than our CX, and have to go outside into the leaf litter to find some of their food, for a few hours daily, after they've reached 6 weeks of age, with the aim of harvesting a 4.4# processed bird around week 14-16, compared to the US week 8-12.

/edit I will grant that the red labels aren't stacked on top of one another, as the worst of the US Battery practices used to be - but that method has lagrgely been abandoned here - caused more problems than it saved in space.

Compare commercial feeds, where you do not even get told what the ingredients are.

 

[NatJ]

I was hoping for ingredients rather than nutritional profile.

Scratch grain ingredients:
almost always cracked corn, plus some combination of whole small grains (wheat, oats, barley, etc), and sometimes other seeds (millet, sunflower, etc)

Complete feed ingredients, ground together and made into pellets or crumbles:
grains (corn plus sometimes others)
meat or soybeans (in the past it could be either or both, now it's usually soybeans)
vitamin & mineral supplements

In the complete feed, they may use parts of things (like wheat germ or wheat bran, not just whole wheat). They tend to vary the recipe a bit, trying to hit the nutritional targets in the cheapest way with the ingredients available at the time. For example, they may change out wheat/oats/barley depending on which one is cheaper because it grew extra-well that year. Or in the past, they might use meat meal from different kinds of animals, or even fish meal some of the time, again depending on which one was cheaper or more available at the time.

I've seen recipes from about a hundred years ago that used milk instead of meat as the main protein source. Either it was dried and mixed in, or sometimes the milk was fed fresh (when the chickens were on the same farm with dairy cows).

The latter doesn't sound very traditional to me - soya has only been in since meat was removed, for example, and that was in 1994 here.

Soy was definitely present in US chicken foods before meat was removed, but it was not as universal as it is now.