Scratch Grains Vs Mealworms

[U_Stormcrow]

Compare commercial feeds, where you do not even get told what the ingredients are.

That's actually backwards from our experience. Its required that all ingredients be printed on the label of our commercial feeds, which are, frankly, quite a bit more informative than what I find on the examples from the Continent, while the contents of "scratch grains" here are a bit more fluid.

Compare, for instance, from one of our larger commercial mills:

"All Flock"
Ground Corn, Corn Gluten Feed, Corn Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Calcium Carbonate, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Red Dog, Citric Acid (a preservative), Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Salt, Dried Trichoderma reesei Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Verxite Granules, Manganese Sulfate, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, Yeast Culture, L-Lysine, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Silicon Dioxide, Oregano Essential Oil, Thyme Essential Oil, Rosemary Essential Oil, Star Anise Essential Oil, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative).

vs.

"Scratch grains" Freshly-ground North American grains


At least, based on what I find of online disclosures. For practical reasons, I can't hop a flight to London and start looking at feed bags to inspect their nutritional labels.

 

[NatJ]

"Scratch grains" Freshly-ground North American grains

The link to "Scratch grains" isn't working right for me. (I assume you tried to link it to a page about the product, just like you did for the Nutrena All Flock.)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I was hoping for ingredients rather than nutritional profile.

The latter doesn't sound very traditional to me - soya has only been in since meat was removed, for example, and that was in 1994 here.

We've been using soy in feed since the 50s - when the use of "meat scraps" was being phased out (then, ultimately banned) but before alternative non plant-based substitutes became commercially available widespread and at scale. Soy and other legumes have amino acid concentrations much closer to the complete/balanced ratios needed by animals like chickens, providing key aminos not present in sufficient quantity in corn, oats, barley, etc - deficiencies that used to be provided by meat scraps, and now supplied here by some combination of soy or alfalfa meal, porcine blood meal, menhaden fish scraps, crab or shrimp meal, etc.

The EU has made use of lower protein feeds for a long time, compared to us, and have long been at the cutting edge of synthetic amino acid use to suppliment the feed, primarily L-Lysine and DL-Methionine. The two most limiting amino acids in a chicken's diet, and also the two best represented, pound per pound in soy, as compared to wheat, oats, barley, corn, rice, sorghum, teff, triticale, rye, or any other grain you can quickly name which is routinely used in chicken feed.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

The link to "Scratch grains" isn't working right for me. (I assume you tried to link it to a page about the product, just like you did for the Nutrena All Flock.)

Fixing it now, ty

 

[NatJ]

Fixing it now, ty

Still isn't working right for me (about 1/2 hour after you posted that.)

Maybe you pasted the link twice or something, and that confused it?

Edit: now it's going to a "page not found" on the nutrena website. Really odd, how the first one worked and the second one is giving so much trouble!

 

[Perris]

That's actually backwards from our experience. Its required that all ingredients be printed on the label of our commercial feeds, which are, frankly, quite a bit more informative than what I find on the examples from the Continent, while the contents of "scratch grains" here are a bit more fluid.

Compare, for instance, from one of our larger commercial mills:

"All Flock"
Ground Corn, Corn Gluten Feed, Corn Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Calcium Carbonate, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Red Dog, Citric Acid (a preservative), Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Salt, Dried Trichoderma reesei Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Verxite Granules, Manganese Sulfate, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, Yeast Culture, L-Lysine, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Silicon Dioxide, Oregano Essential Oil, Thyme Essential Oil, Rosemary Essential Oil, Star Anise Essential Oil, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative).

vs.

"Scratch grains" Freshly-ground North American grains


At least, based on what I find of online disclosures. For practical reasons, I can't hop a flight to London and start looking at feed bags to inspect their nutritional labels.

OK, I am beginning to understand. Corn is nutritionally poor, worse than wheat, oats, and even barley, so feeds based on corn have lots of carbs but need lots of additives to supply what's deficient in protein, vitamins and minerals. But I still don't understand why we have corn in so many guises in the same pack: we have ground corn, then another fragment of corn, another fragment of corn with additives, soybeans (there's the protein), wheat middlings, limestone (there's the calcium), another fragment of corn slightly different to the second fragment of corn, another fragment of wheat which is more nutritious than the middlings and another byproduct of the milling process (as an aside, if they just included whole wheat instead we'd get the middlings and the red dog bit and more besides), and then we're in to the preservatives and additives which supply most of the nutrients, it appears.

That apart, the 'ingredients' don't really tell me what's in the bag because I have no idea what, say, 'dried trichoderma reesei fermentation product' might be in origin or as added (a quick search suggests it's an enzyme based on a fungus). White powders seem to describe most additives in the human food industry, but that still leaves us wondering what recognizable thing was at the start of the process that ended with the white powder.

Grains are more nutritious than corn and don't need as many extras to provide a healthy diet.

 

[Perris]

@CKfarm22 you might find this interesting on the mealworm question
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/11/2068
where the simple summary provided is that "Tenebrio molitor (T. molitor) larvae, known as mealworm, have been considered a good protein source for monogastric animals. They have a high quantity and quality of protein content and amino acid profile. The inclusion of T. molitor larvae in broiler diets improved the growth performance without having negative effects on carcass traits and blood profiles in broiler chickens, or had no influence on the growth performance and carcass yield of broiler chickens."

 

[U_Stormcrow]

OK, I am beginning to understand. Corn is nutritionally poor, worse than wheat, oats, and even barley, so feeds based on corn have lots of carbs but need lots of additives to supply what's deficient in protein, vitamins and minerals. But I still don't understand why we have corn in so many guises in the same pack: we have ground corn, then another fragment of corn, another fragment of corn with additives, soybeans (there's the protein), wheat middlings, limestone (there's the calcium), another fragment of corn slightly different to the second fragment of corn, another fragment of wheat which is more nutritious than the middlings and another byproduct of the milling process (as an aside, if they just included whole wheat instead we'd get the middlings and the red dog bit and more besides), and then we're in to the preservatives and additives which supply most of the nutrients, it appears.

That apart, the 'ingredients' don't really tell me what's in the bag because I have no idea what, say, 'dried trichoderma reesei fermentation product' might be in origin or as added (a quick search suggests it's an enzyme based on a fungus). White powders seem to describe most additives in the human food industry, but that still leaves us wondering what recognizable thing was at the start of the process that ended with the white powder.

Grains are more nutritious than corn and don't need as many extras to provide a healthy diet.
View attachment 2944995

I'll help you keep learning then. 'dried trichoderma reesei fermentation product' is, as you surmised, an enzyme obtained from t. reesei. Most likely, its Lipase B, an enzyme used to aid the breakdown of triacylglycerols into individual fatty acids and glycerol. I make that as an educated guess, becauss I don't see Candida Antarctica (calB), which is the other common source of that enzyme. On other labels, you likely see these things bundled under the label "probiotics".

As to why you migfht see wheat or corn or whatever in multiple forms??? Because the nutritional contents of the individual {ingredient}-based product varies. Have you ever been told that most of the vitamins in a potato are in its skin?? Similar idea here.

Corn, we know. It is what it is. Across the board deficient, but not so badly it can't be "fixed". Mostly its the bulk and the base energy for a complete feed mix, favored here because its cheap. Corn Gluten Feed is a chemical and mechanical process for soaking, fermenting, straining the corn gluten to extract a higher protein, relatively high energy, reasdily digestible feed product. Corn Distillers Grains are another inexpensive byproduct of other production, which can concentrate the protein value as high as 40%, roughly 5x where corn started, while keeping the net carbs (comparatively) low. Unfortunately, it can also concentrate sulphur compounds, its readily colonized by mycotoxins and aflatoxins, and if its from some productions, it can have high copper content as well.

If desired, though its time consuming, you can go ingredient by ingredient and figure out why its been added, while Nutrena's use of so many "partial" or processed ingredients allows the mill to slightly adjust the ingredients to ensure the final product meets desired nutritional guarantees. A load of high protein corn might allow reduction in the cdgs, while a higher fiber corn might require increase in the corn gluten feed...

 

[U_Stormcrow]

...and, as reminder, I have no degree in animal nutrition, I've not been raising poultry or other livestock for long, and I don't purport to be an expert. Nothing I've said above is particularly insightful, contentious, or subject to much debate. Its all readily available, widely published, generally accepted knowledge which can be easily uncovered with some focused reading. I've done a lot of reading.

Time and interest permitting, you should easily be able to reach or exceed my command of the subject at no cost or investment beyond your own efforts.

 

[Miss Lydia]

Still isn't working right for me (about 1/2 hour after you posted that.)

Maybe you pasted the link twice or something, and that confused it?

Edit: now it's going to a "page not found" on the nutrena website. Really odd, how the first one worked and the second one is giving so much trouble!

https://www.nutrenaworld.com/product/nature-smart-scratch-grains#guaranteed-analysis-anchor