Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[pennyJo1960]

@Shadrach your a amazing person..
I have 1/4 of acre fenced the birds. This is there yard The fence was installed for garden that went to wayside.

The Chickens have hazlenut trees and paple trees to hide under.
These are feeders we use put plywood under them to keep them from being tipped over.
The two rooster are Red and Smudge.. Red went to soup.

 

[micstrachan]

It's cold here; a couple of degrees above freezing. I've been at the allotments since 1400 hours supervising the chickens out in the allotment run.
I took this just before Henry lead the hens to roost.
The coop is a not very well designed flat pack job. It's way past it's best which wasn't all that to start with (for those who don't know the expression "not all that", it means not much good)
The coop is made from thin board. The roof got blown off and the repair is a bodge. The roof leaks and whoever was responsible for the repair didn't understand the importance of ventilation. There are no proper vents at ceiling height and with 21 chickens in it the humidity is high and amonia builds up quickly.
View attachment 2916330

Beautiful photo. Poor birds in that coop.

Back tax:

 

[micstrachan]

@Shadrach your a amazing person..
I have 1/4 of acre fenced the birds. This is there yard The fence was installed for garden that went to wayside.

The Chickens have hazlenut trees and paple trees to hide under.
These are feeders we use put plywood under them to keep them from being tipped over.
The two rooster are Red and Smudge.. Red went to soup.View attachment 2916468View attachment 2916473View attachment 2916474

Oh my gosh, that rooster face off with raised hackles! Outstanding!

 

[Shadrach]

I read a lot of stuff on breeds that are reputed to be cold tolerant. What exactly does this mean? Who states this and how was it tested?
I haven’t noticed the chickens I’ve seen adding an extra layer of fat for insulation, or growing a different type of feather. Husky dogs for example have a different type of hair that acts as a much better insulator than that of most other breeds. I’ve seen no evidence that this has happened to chickens.

Did those who “tested” the cold hardiness of the chicken just go by the fact that some didn’t die and that some were therefore cold hardy?

One factor must be that a breed kept in cold conditions learns how to cope with it and their chicks, assuming natural hatching etc, learn how to cope with it as well. After many generations that breed that has been bred in those conditions will, one assumes, learn to adapt to them.

However, if that breed which is supposed to be cold hardy is imported from a hot zone to a cold zone what evidence is there that they are any better at coping with the cold than any other breed from a hot zone?

My Finnish friend who is trying to repopulate land race breeds in his area tells me it has take many generations for the land race breeds he is interested in to acclimatize to the winter conditions where he lives.

There seems to be a great misunderstanding of the purpose of chicken feathers and ask on most forums and you’ll be told that chickens don’t get cold because they have all those lovely feathers to keep them warm. There seems to be some ignorance regarding thermo regulation and the role the chickens feathers play in it.

Today's chickens are all descendants of the jungle fowl. Jungle fowl haven’t changed very much since they evolved from what I’ve read. The last jungle I went to was pretty warm and I haven’t read anything that states they got any colder since. Indonesian jungle is just one example of where there are jungle fowl but the link below has average temperatures and humidity information.

https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/indonesia

Try as I might, I can’t see anywhere where it gets anything close to freezing, or even cold come to that.

So what on earth does the chicken think it’s doing evolving with all those lovely feathers to keep it warm?

Well, those feathers do in fact help keep it cool. Chickens like many other creatures have the ability to manipulate their feathers to allow air flow close to the skin. The outer feathers, if they are in direct sunlight for a time, or in the rain can be lifted to provide a layer of protection while air circulates under that layer. More then one layer of protection from the heat is THE way to keep cool, keeping cool is not achieved by taking off all your layers and getting your skin burnt. I know it seems obvious but.

In Catalonia where temperatures could be 35 Centigrade to 40 centigrade plus in the hottest summer months the chicken made for their favourite shade spots. These were in general bushes under tree cover. This must be the closest to a jungle environment they could find. The sun shines on the tree tops and if tree cover is sparse, on the tops of the bushes but doesn’t reach the ground where the chickens are. Add to this that any breeze blows through the trees and the bushes cooling the foliage above them. I’ve sat under a few with them and I can tell you, the chickens know a thing or two about keeping cool.

Even in my house, which was reasonably cool even on the hottest days, the chickens would head for the bushes in preference.

Insulation works both ways; not only does it keep heat in, it also keeps heat out. The chickens feathers act as insulation, but they are designed to keep heat out rather than keep heat in.

There is no such thing as a perfect insulator. They all have a thermal gradient. The slope of the gradient in most cases is dependent on the temperatures either side of the insulator material. Basically the colder it gets on the sink side (the cold side) the steeper the gradient. The steeper the gradient the faster heat is transferred from the source to the sink (hot side to cold side. You have to do work to reverse this process)

It’s like a house with a fire burning in it. You have to put more fuel on the fire the colder it gets to maintain the temperature in the house. Chicken and other warm blooded creatures work on the same principle.

A chickens core body temperature is 41 Centigrade, a little higher than ours. In order to maintain that temperature they need to burn fuel (food). What can also be done to reduce the fuel demand is to increase the effectiveness of any insulation between the heat source and the outside.

Ducks for example have feathers that trap the air as well as being water resistant. This is in part what makes them be able to swim and stay warm. Chickens feathers are not like ducks and if they get soaked and cold they go hyperthermic very easily and in deep water a soaked chicken is likely to drown if the cold doesn’t kill them first.

It’s not looking good for the cold hardy chicken breed statements so far.

Back to the Ex Battery chickens at the allotment. What is going to keep them warm is food and for Ex Batts in particular who are likely to have up to half or less of the normal chickens feathers in place on arrival food is vital. As winter approaches many of these Ex Batts not only have their first major moult, they are also trying to regrow the feathers that got plucked out at the batteries. They need extra food. In fact, they need feed available all the time. Ideally they need feed at 20% protein content and above and extra fats and carbohydrates to generate heat.

I’ve yet to read any instructions regarding this from the rescue organisations. Not have a I read anything about what type of accommodation is suitable for Ex Batts who have absolutely no cold tolerance because the batteries are always warm just through having say five thousands chickens in a confined source each giving off about 12 watts.

There is no chicken that is cold hardy that hasn’t been hatched in a cold environment and become acclimatised to it. All breeds apart from hard feathered game fowl have the same type of feathers and operate on the same principle as any other chicken. The simple fact is they just tolerate the cold because they have no alternative. In order for any chicken to be cold hardy it would have to have undergone some physiological transformation that those who are considered not cold hardy hadn’t.

I’ve yet to see any evidence of this.

Most days when I’ve arrived at the allotments there has been no feed in the feeder. The coop isn’t remotely warm which is why they huddle together as you can see in the pictures. I’ve watched some evenings as they rotate those on the outside of these huddles to the inside so they all get warm. There is enough space for them to spread out more; not a lot more, but they use about two thirds of the available space from what I’ve seen.

If chickens are well fed, healthy, have a full set of feathers and dry. they can tolerate cold conditions quite well. Ex Batts have none of these advantages.

 

[Shadrach]

ah, familiar problem. Do the community have regular meetings, at which you might ambush them with a collecting tin? And a sign up list for help with the coop rebuild?

If these are the same people who wanted the allotments to stop housing going there, some at least might actually back on to the site. You could ask them for help shifting materials and tools to and fro, and for an extension lead to give you power - and maybe even heat! or snacks! - during build sessions.

There are supposed to be but nobody turns up.

 

[Shadrach]

@Shadrach your a amazing person..
I have 1/4 of acre fenced the birds. This is there yard The fence was installed for garden that went to wayside.

The Chickens have hazlenut trees and paple trees to hide under.
These are feeders we use put plywood under them to keep them from being tipped over.
The two rooster are Red and Smudge.. Red went to soup.View attachment 2916468View attachment 2916473View attachment 2916474

I'm not Penny. I just like chickens.

 

[Shadrach]

Henry.

 

[Sortacountrychicken]

Henry.
View attachment 2916613

Sorry if you have said before but do you know how much he weighs? He looks massive in pictures. As well as being quite handsome of course.

 

[MaryJanet]

I read a lot of stuff on breeds that are reputed to be cold tolerant. What exactly does this mean? Who states this and how was it tested?
I haven’t noticed the chickens I’ve seen adding an extra layer of fat for insulation, or growing a different type of feather. Husky dogs for example have a different type of hair that acts as a much better insulator than that of most other breeds. I’ve seen no evidence that this has happened to chickens.

Did those who “tested” the cold hardiness of the chicken just go by the fact that some didn’t die and that some were therefore cold hardy?

One factor must be that a breed kept in cold conditions learns how to cope with it and their chicks, assuming natural hatching etc, learn how to cope with it as well. After many generations that breed that has been bred in those conditions will, one assumes, learn to adapt to them.

However, if that breed which is supposed to be cold hardy is imported from a hot zone to a cold zone what evidence is there that they are any better at coping with the cold than any other breed from a hot zone?

My Finnish friend who is trying to repopulate land race breeds in his area tells me it has take many generations for the land race breeds he is interested in to acclimatize to the winter conditions where he lives.

There seems to be a great misunderstanding of the purpose of chicken feathers and ask on most forums and you’ll be told that chickens don’t get cold because they have all those lovely feathers to keep them warm. There seems to be some ignorance regarding thermo regulation and the role the chickens feathers play in it.

Today's chickens are all descendants of the jungle fowl. Jungle fowl haven’t changed very much since they evolved from what I’ve read. The last jungle I went to was pretty warm and I haven’t read anything that states they got any colder since. Indonesian jungle is just one example of where there are jungle fowl but the link below has average temperatures and humidity information.

https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/indonesia

Try as I might, I can’t see anywhere where it gets anything close to freezing, or even cold come to that.

So what on earth does the chicken think it’s doing evolving with all those lovely feathers to keep it warm?

Well, those feathers do in fact help keep it cool. Chickens like many other creatures have the ability to manipulate their feathers to allow air flow close to the skin. The outer feathers, if they are in direct sunlight for a time, or in the rain can be lifted to provide a layer of protection while air circulates under that layer. More then one layer of protection from the heat is THE way to keep cool, keeping cool is not achieved by taking off all your layers and getting your skin burnt. I know it seems obvious but.

In Catalonia where temperatures could be 35 Centigrade to 40 centigrade plus in the hottest summer months the chicken made for their favourite shade spots. These were in general bushes under tree cover. This must be the closest to a jungle environment they could find. The sun shines on the tree tops and if tree cover is sparse, on the tops of the bushes but doesn’t reach the ground where the chickens are. Add to this that any breeze blows through the trees and the bushes cooling the foliage above them. I’ve sat under a few with them and I can tell you, the chickens know a thing or two about keeping cool.

Even in my house, which was reasonably cool even on the hottest days, the chickens would head for the bushes in preference.

Insulation works both ways; not only does it keep heat in, it also keeps heat out. The chickens feathers act as insulation, but they are designed to keep heat out rather than keep heat in.

There is no such thing as a perfect insulator. They all have a thermal gradient. The slope of the gradient in most cases is dependent on the temperatures either side of the insulator material. Basically the colder it gets on the sink side (the cold side) the steeper the gradient. The steeper the gradient the faster heat is transferred from the source to the sink (hot side to cold side. You have to do work to reverse this process)

It’s like a house with a fire burning in it. You have to put more fuel on the fire the colder it gets to maintain the temperature in the house. Chicken and other warm blooded creatures work on the same principle.

A chickens core body temperature is 41 Centigrade, a little higher than ours. In order to maintain that temperature they need to burn fuel (food). What can also be done to reduce the fuel demand is to increase the effectiveness of any insulation between the heat source and the outside.

Ducks for example have feathers that trap the air as well as being water resistant. This is in part what makes them be able to swim and stay warm. Chickens feathers are not like ducks and if they get soaked and cold they go hyperthermic very easily and in deep water a soaked chicken is likely to drown if the cold doesn’t kill them first.

It’s not looking good for the cold hardy chicken breed statements so far.

Back to the Ex Battery chickens at the allotment. What is going to keep them warm is food and for Ex Batts in particular who are likely to have up to half or less of the normal chickens feathers in place on arrival food is vital. As winter approaches many of these Ex Batts not only have their first major moult, they are also trying to regrow the feathers that got plucked out at the batteries. They need extra food. In fact, they need feed available all the time. Ideally they need feed at 20% protein content and above and extra fats and carbohydrates to generate heat.

I’ve yet to read any instructions regarding this from the rescue organisations. Not have a I read anything about what type of accommodation is suitable for Ex Batts who have absolutely no cold tolerance because the batteries are always warm just through having say five thousands chickens in a confined source each giving off about 12 watts.

There is no chicken that is cold hardy that hasn’t been hatched in a cold environment and become acclimatised to it. All breeds apart from hard feathered game fowl have the same type of feathers and operate on the same principle as any other chicken. The simple fact is they just tolerate the cold because they have no alternative. In order for any chicken to be cold hardy it would have to have undergone some physiological transformation that those who are considered not cold hardy hadn’t.

I’ve yet to see any evidence of this.

Most days when I’ve arrived at the allotments there has been no feed in the feeder. The coop isn’t remotely warm which is why they huddle together as you can see in the pictures. I’ve watched some evenings as they rotate those on the outside of these huddles to the inside so they all get warm. There is enough space for them to spread out more; not a lot more, but they use about two thirds of the available space from what I’ve seen.

If chickens are well fed, healthy, have a full set of feathers and dry. they can tolerate cold conditions quite well. Ex Batts have none of these advantages.

Such a lot in this post. I see your point about ex-battery hens being poorly equipped for the cold. I daresay they're poorly equipped for dry hot summers too.

 

[RoyalChick]

Such a lot in this post. I see your point about ex-battery hens being poorly equipped for the cold. I daresay they're poorly equipped for dry hot summers too.

I always thought cold tolerant was to do with big floppy combs and frostbite rather than feathers or fat. But I have no idea really.