She said/He said Who's right? Who's wrong? No one!

[WVduckchick]

Yes, I agree, breed from the strongest.  But... this is where my opinion differs from main stream.  By basing the definition of "strongest" on hatching performance, we're only looking at a very small sliver of the pie.  And, I'm in no way saying that folks who let the chick who needs help out of the shell die are NOT looking at the whole pie.  I know that most of the folks who are hatching eggs are also culling within their flock, so they are constantly looking to see who stays to play in the gene pool an other year, and who goes.  So much criteria to look at, even for the back yard breeder with a barn yard mix.    

So, hatching performance is a small, but important piece.  The question that I continue to ask is this:  By letting the chick die in the incubator, are we truly culling our flocks for future hatching strength?  Common sense says yes.  Now, look a bit further, and ask, "Why is this particular chick having difficulty getting out of the shell?"  I'm left questioning my skill at providing artificial incubation that matches the needs of the chick all the way from embryo to hatchling.  At best, it's an artificial means.  We all know that a "good" Mama Broody does it best.  Even a Mama broody who's never seen a chick before, never incubated an egg before is capable of hatching eggs in far less than ideal circumstances.  If Mama got a parade for successful hatches, she'd be getting one with every clutch she sets, I imagine!  So, I have an inferior incubator, I make mistakes, errors in judgement, temps and humidity are not always perfect.  For that matter, we most likely still don't know what perfect is.  Then, look at the eggs:  genetic flaws... hopefully, those are the ones that die no matter what we do.  Then, there's nutrition.  I tried an experiment where I had my flock on supplemental vitamins in addition to high protein.  I figured that would improve my hatch rate, right?  WRONG!  Worst hatch ever!  Chicks did great right up to lock down.  Then, I had the highest percentage of DIS ever.  IMO, these chicks had too much of a good thing going.  They grew too big to be able to position for a good hatch.  So, I'll continue to be of the opinion that a chick that is the result of an assisted hatch, CAN grow out to be an important contributor to the gene pool.  It's no fault of the hen who laid the egg, or of the chick if he's too big for the container he was given to grow in.  It's no fault of the hen or the chick if the temp or humidity is off, and he ends up being glued, or delayed.  Just as human babies sometimes need to be delivered by cesarean deliveries, and they sometimes need to spend time in NICU, that does not mean that they are genetically inferior.  We've all heard of the NICU baby who goes on to be a foot ball star, or is smarter than all of her class mates!  

So, I'll remain red.  I'm early in my hatching career.  I may shift to the blue side in the future, and I absolutely understand and respect the "Don't interfere.  If the chick is not strong enough to hatch, I won't assist, and I won't have to cull a little fluff ball later when he has problems."  I truly respect that!  But, I'll continue to assist as needed.  I'm thankful that all of the chicks that I've assisted have gone on to grow well.  24 hours later, I can't tell which chick was assisted, and which one was not.  

Excellent points! So you will be happy to read my last post, and you also make me feel better for what I'm doing. Yeah!!

 

[FridayYet]

That's a good thought Friday. I don't really know...

This will be more popular with the ladies, not so much with the guys, but I kept thinking about what Ruby said, so when I got home, I opened him up more. And more. Ok, he's out of the egg. Still breathing. I mean, if I have to cull him eventually, then so be it. But everything looks fine except a little opening where the sac gets drawn in. Feet, wings, legs and all. One eye isn't quite as open, but it was the one on the side of his head that was still inside the egg. So he is now in a bowl, under a light, warming up, and drying out. He took a couple of sips of water too. So we will see...

And Ross, you are right. I actually should thank hubby because I'm not worrying that I will have to ask him to do it. I'm doing this on my own, so it is what it is.

Well if you have gone this far, I hope it does well!

 

[WVduckchick]

Well if you have gone this far, I hope it does well!

Thanks. Its strange, as I was opening it up, it was almost like I was prepared for it to die in my hands, so I knew I couldn't do any worse than leaving it as it was, so I was ok with it. That could very well change, and I could regret it, but I'll deal with whatever happens. And learn from it.

 

[kwhites634]

Yes, I agree, breed from the strongest. But... this is where my opinion differs from main stream. By basing the definition of "strongest" on hatching performance, we're only looking at a very small sliver of the pie. And, I'm in no way saying that folks who let the chick who needs help out of the shell die are NOT looking at the whole pie. I know that most of the folks who are hatching eggs are also culling within their flock, so they are constantly looking to see who stays to play in the gene pool an other year, and who goes. So much criteria to look at, even for the back yard breeder with a barn yard mix.

So, hatching performance is a small, but important piece. The question that I continue to ask is this: By letting the chick die in the incubator, are we truly culling our flocks for future hatching strength? Common sense says yes. Now, look a bit further, and ask, "Why is this particular chick having difficulty getting out of the shell?" I'm left questioning my skill at providing artificial incubation that matches the needs of the chick all the way from embryo to hatchling. At best, it's an artificial means. We all know that a "good" Mama Broody does it best. Even a Mama broody who's never seen a chick before, never incubated an egg before is capable of hatching eggs in far less than ideal circumstances. If Mama got a parade for successful hatches, she'd be getting one with every clutch she sets, I imagine! So, I have an inferior incubator, I make mistakes, errors in judgement, temps and humidity are not always perfect. For that matter, we most likely still don't know what perfect is. Then, look at the eggs: genetic flaws... hopefully, those are the ones that die no matter what we do. Then, there's nutrition. I tried an experiment where I had my flock on supplemental vitamins in addition to high protein. I figured that would improve my hatch rate, right? WRONG! Worst hatch ever! Chicks did great right up to lock down. Then, I had the highest percentage of DIS ever. IMO, these chicks had too much of a good thing going. They grew too big to be able to position for a good hatch. So, I'll continue to be of the opinion that a chick that is the result of an assisted hatch, CAN grow out to be an important contributor to the gene pool. It's no fault of the hen who laid the egg, or of the chick if he's too big for the container he was given to grow in. It's no fault of the hen or the chick if the temp or humidity is off, and he ends up being glued, or delayed. Just as human babies sometimes need to be delivered by cesarean deliveries, and they sometimes need to spend time in NICU, that does not mean that they are genetically inferior. We've all heard of the NICU baby who goes on to be a foot ball star, or is smarter than all of her class mates!

So, I'll remain red. I'm early in my hatching career. I may shift to the blue side in the future, and I absolutely understand and respect the "Don't interfere. If the chick is not strong enough to hatch, I won't assist, and I won't have to cull a little fluff ball later when he has problems." I truly respect that! But, I'll continue to assist as needed. I'm thankful that all of the chicks that I've assisted have gone on to grow well. 24 hours later, I can't tell which chick was assisted, and which one was not.

I've been "reading the mail" here for a little while now, about the troubles various folks have had with chicks not being able to break out of the shell, and I gotta wonder if perhaps those particular shells are just too thick, for whatever reason. I haven't had any experience with chicken eggs hatching yet, but I've lost a few quail that couldn't make it out, and it seems to me their shells were somewhat thicker than normal. Or, perhaps, the membrane is just too tough. Diet? Minerals in their drinking water? Who knows> Certainly not I.

 

[AmyLynn2374]

I always wonder if you perpetuate weakness if you help too much. Will the offspring of the chicks you save lay eggs that have trouble hatching?

Just food for thought, I haven't raised enough to know.

But breeding from the strongest just seems to make more sense to me.

My very first assist turned out to be my Australorp hen. Not only did she grow to be a strong healthy girl, but one of my best egg layers.My last hatch this season was my first hatch from eggs from my own chicks. I had 4 of her eggs in there. They all hatched healthy and strong and are growing great. I've kept my mouth shut all day on this topic because I feel very strongly about it and it comes down to personal opinion and choice. The reasoning that a chick needs help in the first place is the biggest key to it's chances. If it is a late hatcher from bad incubation-delayed hatch due to low temps then I would agree that the chances are pretty high that it'll be a weak chick and possibly die after hatch or need to be culled. A chick that is shrink wrapped or malepositioned, with no other health problems might die in the shell because we've created less than optimal conditions and have caused nature to put them at a disadvantage. That same chick can be helped to hatch, become strong with good care and be a productive part of the flock. If a chick is struggling and you do nothing and it fights all day tiring itself out and weakening it's body to the point of fatigue and failure does that mean that that chick would have died regardless?? No, it means the odds were against them and they couldn't overcome them without help. How do you know that with just a small effort on our part that the chick may have been perfectly fine? We all know this is one of SC's and my biggest differences. And we all know that many people won't help chicks and for many reasons be it "culling" is possible and sucks, they breed to perfection and a chick that can't hatch on it's own doesn't meet the requirement, whatever. I just can't see watching a chick struggle without at least giving it a chance. SC has few assists that haven't had to be culled, my experience is just the opposite, I've never had an assist I had to cull and only one that died after being helped over a week later of digestional complications.
I think to be fair you can not look at all assists the same. Another thing that should be considered is the ability of the hatcher that is doing the assist. If the assist is even being done right. I've read so many posts where the "assistant" went in with no idea and had they known what they were doing might have had a different outcome. I'm not saying that everyone should assist, I just think the idea of assisting is as jaded as opening the bator during hatch.

 

[kwhites634]

My very first assist turned out to be my Australorp hen. Not only did she grow to be a strong healthy girl, but one of my best egg layers.My last hatch this season was my first hatch from eggs from my own chicks. I had 4 of her eggs in there. They all hatched healthy and strong and are growing great. I've kept my mouth shut all day on this topic because I feel very strongly about it and it comes down to personal opinion and choice. The reasoning that a chick needs help in the first place is the biggest key to it's chances. If it is a late hatcher from bad incubation-delayed hatch due to low temps then I would agree that the chances are pretty high that it'll be a weak chick and possibly die after hatch or need to be culled. A chick that is shrink wrapped or malepositioned, with no other health problems might die in the shell because we've created less than optimal conditions and have caused nature to put them at a disadvantage. That same chick can be helped to hatch, become strong with good care and be a productive part of the flock. If a chick is struggling and you do nothing and it fights all day tiring itself out and weakening it's body to the point of fatigue and failure does that mean that that chick would have died regardless?? No, it means the odds were against them and they couldn't overcome them without help. How do you know that with just a small effort on our part that the chick may have been perfectly fine? We all know this is one of SC's and my biggest differences. And we all know that many people won't help chicks and for many reasons be it "culling" is possible and sucks, they breed to perfection and a chick that can't hatch on it's own doesn't meet the requirement, whatever. I just can't see watching a chick struggle without at least giving it a chance. SC has few assists that haven't had to be culled, my experience is just the opposite, I've never had an assist I had to cull and only one that died after being helped over a week later of digestional complications.
I think to be fair you can not look at all assists the same. Another thing that should be considered is the ability of the hatcher that is doing the assist. If the assist is even being done right. I've read so many posts where the "assistant" went in with no idea and had they known what they were doing might have had a different outcome. I'm not saying that everyone should assist, I just think the idea of assisting is as jaded as opening the bator during hatch.

Makes sense to me.

 

[RubyNala97]

That's a good thought Friday. I don't really know...

This will be more popular with the ladies, not so much with the guys, but I kept thinking about what Ruby said, so when I got home, I opened him up more. And more. Ok, he's out of the egg. Still breathing. I mean, if I have to cull him eventually, then so be it. But everything looks fine except a little opening where the sac gets drawn in. Feet, wings, legs and all. One eye isn't quite as open, but it was the one on the side of his head that was still inside the egg. So he is now in a bowl, under a light, warming up, and drying out. He took a couple of sips of water too. So we will see...

And Ross, you are right. I actually should thank hubby because I'm not worrying that I will have to ask him to do it. I'm doing this on my own, so it is what it is.

Awww. I think he proved some strength by staying alive all day without heat. It's so hard to know what would have happened if... If you didn't candle and see the pip, or opened the shell, would he have hatched? Who knows. That's what's hard for me with stepping in. Because I know that as soon as I do intervene, I'm pretty much in it for the long haul because I altered the natural process. Everything with hatching is designed so perfectly and precisely. By opening an egg and adding a little more oxygen, the whole design is then altered. I had read another post awhile back about someone taking part of the shell off and the chick was doing good but to much oxygen made the chick get too sticky and then it couldn't turn or push out. So that's why I was thinking that. I hope he/she pulls through. As Sally Sunshine said in her guide to assisted hatching, you're giving it a chance to live. It may die but at least your giving it a chance that it might not of had otherwise.

 

[FridayYet]

Yes, I agree, breed from the strongest. But... this is where my opinion differs from main stream. By basing the definition of "strongest" on hatching performance, we're only looking at a very small sliver of the pie. And, I'm in no way saying that folks who let the chick who needs help out of the shell die are NOT looking at the whole pie. I know that most of the folks who are hatching eggs are also culling within their flock, so they are constantly looking to see who stays to play in the gene pool an other year, and who goes. So much criteria to look at, even for the back yard breeder with a barn yard mix.

So, hatching performance is a small, but important piece. The question that I continue to ask is this: By letting the chick die in the incubator, are we truly culling our flocks for future hatching strength? Common sense says yes. Now, look a bit further, and ask, "Why is this particular chick having difficulty getting out of the shell?" I'm left questioning my skill at providing artificial incubation that matches the needs of the chick all the way from embryo to hatchling. At best, it's an artificial means. We all know that a "good" Mama Broody does it best. Even a Mama broody who's never seen a chick before, never incubated an egg before is capable of hatching eggs in far less than ideal circumstances. If Mama got a parade for successful hatches, she'd be getting one with every clutch she sets, I imagine! So, I have an inferior incubator, I make mistakes, errors in judgement, temps and humidity are not always perfect. For that matter, we most likely still don't know what perfect is. Then, look at the eggs: genetic flaws... hopefully, those are the ones that die no matter what we do. Then, there's nutrition. I tried an experiment where I had my flock on supplemental vitamins in addition to high protein. I figured that would improve my hatch rate, right? WRONG! Worst hatch ever! Chicks did great right up to lock down. Then, I had the highest percentage of DIS ever. IMO, these chicks had too much of a good thing going. They grew too big to be able to position for a good hatch. So, I'll continue to be of the opinion that a chick that is the result of an assisted hatch, CAN grow out to be an important contributor to the gene pool. It's no fault of the hen who laid the egg, or of the chick if he's too big for the container he was given to grow in. It's no fault of the hen or the chick if the temp or humidity is off, and he ends up being glued, or delayed. Just as human babies sometimes need to be delivered by cesarean deliveries, and they sometimes need to spend time in NICU, that does not mean that they are genetically inferior. We've all heard of the NICU baby who goes on to be a foot ball star, or is smarter than all of her class mates!

So, I'll remain red. I'm early in my hatching career. I may shift to the blue side in the future, and I absolutely understand and respect the "Don't interfere. If the chick is not strong enough to hatch, I won't assist, and I won't have to cull a little fluff ball later when he has problems." I truly respect that! But, I'll continue to assist as needed. I'm thankful that all of the chicks that I've assisted have gone on to grow well. 24 hours later, I can't tell which chick was assisted, and which one was not.

Very good points, but I'll remain purple I think. There are only a few times I'll assist - like if the chick is half zipped and stopped and I can see it struggling. I definitely won't assist if there is no external pip. Just a personal choice.

People talk about broodies being great, and some are, but I've also read of broodies walking away with their first babies and leaving the others to DIS, broodies abandoning clutches, and broodies smashing their eggs. And of course I had the experience of a broody killing her first chick with two additional quitters. So I think there are many broodies that would never, ever get a parade, just as there are many who do deserve one!

I also agree that the ability to hatch is a part of being strong, just like the ability to forage, growth rate, feather strength, straight legs, bright eyes, etc. so it's a piece I choose to include in my overall assessment. Nothing wrong with others being full-on red though!

In my job, I also hear of the NICU baby that is blind, racked with cerebral palsy, will permanently be fed through a tube and had severely decreased mental capacity. I read of many that have genetic abnormalities and are only saved by massive amounts of medical intervention and encouraged to struggle on as long as they can. Does that make them less precious, less special, less important? NO, but they are humans and I look at them much differently and with much more compassion than I do my chickens.

 

[lazy gardener]

Agreed. You do need to know what you're doing when you do an assist. Do I? Maybe... Sometimes. Do I always make the right call? NO. Are they always successful? NO. I remember several that were not. One was a late hatch, big mushy chick that died later of peritonitis. One was assisted too early, and died. All the rest have gone on to thrive. So, my successes definitely outweigh the failures. My experience is improving, both in assist method and judgement. If faced with a chick in shell that is clearly not going to make it, the choice becomes: let it die a slow but sure death in the shell, or give a bit of assist and see where it goes. It may still lead to death, or it just might lead to an other healthy chick. (One more step closer to the parade!)

 

[AmyLynn2374]

Very good points, but I'll remain purple I think. There are only a few times I'll assist - like if the chick is half zipped and stopped and I can see it struggling. I definitely won't assist if there is no external pip. Just a personal choice.

People talk about broodies being great, and some are, but I've also read of broodies walking away with their first babies and leaving the others to DIS, broodies abandoning clutches, and broodies smashing their eggs. And of course I had the experience of a broody killing her first chick with two additional quitters. So I think there are many broodies that would never, ever get a parade, just as there are many who do deserve one!

I also agree that the ability to hatch is a part of being strong, just like the ability to forage, growth rate, feather strength, straight legs, bright eyes, etc. so it's a piece I choose to include in my overall assessment. Nothing wrong with others being full-on red though!

In my job, I also hear of the NICU baby that is blind, racked with cerebral palsy, will permanently be fed through a tube and had severely decreased mental capacity. I read of many that have genetic abnormalities and are only saved by massive amounts of medical intervention and encouraged to struggle on as long as they can. Does that make them less precious, less special, less important? NO, but they are humans and I look at them much differently and with much more compassion than I do my chickens.

I totally agree with not going in before an external pip or until it's been pipped for 18 hours at least! I don't consider those who literally go in after the chick before it makes it's pip red. They are ORANGE. That goes beyond red. I can handle hearing someone put a "safety pip" in an internally pipped chicks air cell cause it's been over 24 hours. (Though I have never done this.) But I cringe with some of the "assisting" I see on the threads. I guess we all have a line that we set to place value on the viability of an unhatched chick and mine is it has to pip and be pipped at least 18 hours. (Unless there's obvious distress prior.)