She said/He said Who's right? Who's wrong? No one!

[FridayYet]

Thanks. Its strange, as I was opening it up, it was almost like I was prepared for it to die in my hands, so I knew I couldn't do any worse than leaving it as it was, so I was ok with it. That could very well change, and I could regret it, but I'll deal with whatever happens. And learn from it.

IF you are doing what you feel is right, there will be no need for regret! Great learning experience, for sure.

My very first assist turned out to be my Australorp hen. Not only did she grow to be a strong healthy girl, but one of my best egg layers.My last hatch this season was my first hatch from eggs from my own chicks. I had 4 of her eggs in there. They all hatched healthy and strong and are growing great. I've kept my mouth shut all day on this topic because I feel very strongly about it and it comes down to personal opinion and choice. The reasoning that a chick needs help in the first place is the biggest key to it's chances. If it is a late hatcher from bad incubation-delayed hatch due to low temps then I would agree that the chances are pretty high that it'll be a weak chick and possibly die after hatch or need to be culled. A chick that is shrink wrapped or malepositioned, with no other health problems might die in the shell because we've created less than optimal conditions and have caused nature to put them at a disadvantage. That same chick can be helped to hatch, become strong with good care and be a productive part of the flock. If a chick is struggling and you do nothing and it fights all day tiring itself out and weakening it's body to the point of fatigue and failure does that mean that that chick would have died regardless?? No, it means the odds were against them and they couldn't overcome them without help. How do you know that with just a small effort on our part that the chick may have been perfectly fine? We all know this is one of SC's and my biggest differences. And we all know that many people won't help chicks and for many reasons be it "culling" is possible and sucks, they breed to perfection and a chick that can't hatch on it's own doesn't meet the requirement, whatever. I just can't see watching a chick struggle without at least giving it a chance. SC has few assists that haven't had to be culled, my experience is just the opposite, I've never had an assist I had to cull and only one that died after being helped over a week later of digestional complications.
I think to be fair you can not look at all assists the same. Another thing that should be considered is the ability of the hatcher that is doing the assist. If the assist is even being done right. I've read so many posts where the "assistant" went in with no idea and had they known what they were doing might have had a different outcome. I'm not saying that everyone should assist, I just think the idea of assisting is as jaded as opening the bator during hatch.

Why have you kept your mouth shut all day? It's your thread!

I thought this was a safe place to voice opinions??

You brought up an excellent point about incubation conditions. You know yours so well and have been hands-on for so long I would probably end up assisting yours, too. But others do not have that experience, or may be dealing with shipped eggs, changes in altitude, unknown conditions of parent stock, etc.

I also think some people are fine with tube-feeding cross-beaked chickens, making wheelchairs for them, etc. That's totally fine if it's what you want to do. (Especially if you don't have to be at work all day!) There's a huge range of intervention vs. non-intervention, and we all have to find what works for us.

 

[WVduckchick]

Some great points this evening by everyone!! Even if my little guy dies, I think all these points will give many readers something to think about! So I'm glad to have sparked so many things for folks to consider. I very much appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.

to all!!

 

[sideWing]

I know. It's a no win situation. The one downside to hatching and owning animals.
I can't get them, it says I have to have a kindle-prime membership for $9.99 a month. Do you have that?
That's awesome!! What better reason to hatch!

I do have a prime membership. Sorry about that.

 

[AmyLynn2374]

IF you are doing what you feel is right, there will be no need for regret! Great learning experience, for sure.


Why have you kept your mouth shut all day? It's your thread!

I thought this was a safe place to voice opinions??

You brought up an excellent point about incubation conditions. You know yours so well and have been hands-on for so long I would probably end up assisting yours, too. But others do not have that experience, or may be dealing with shipped eggs, changes in altitude, unknown conditions of parent stock, etc.

I also think some people are fine with tube-feeding cross-beaked chickens, making wheelchairs for them, etc. That's totally fine if it's what you want to do. (Especially if you don't have to be at work all day!) There's a huge range of intervention vs. non-intervention, and we all have to find what works for us.

That's why I say, to be fair you can't lump all assists in together. Like everything else in hatching, there are so many variables, one "philosophy" doesn't fit all circumstances. And Some people should not assist (of course, I also believe some people should not hatch or have chickens, but that's neither here nor there...lol).I think a lot of assists that end up dying would actually have lived had the person left them alone because the hatcher did not know the "when" to assist.

I made up my mind early on that I was not going to regret my decisions, not dwell on the what ifs, even if I made the wrong judgement call, I was going to treat it as a learning process and move on. I also decided that I would never let another person make me feel guilty for my methods or decisions. (That doesn't mean I won't let someone pee me off, just will not feel guilty...lol) When you second guess yourself, play the what if game, all you are doing is causing your self confidence to lower and negativity to come into your process and experiences. I learned real quick that if you can't handle certain things in hatching and chicken raising, then you shouldn't do it. I'm still a softie overall, just a tiny bit harder in the heart/conscience area.

 

[FridayYet]

I hope y'all are high & dry enuf that the heat & humidity doesn't bother you the way it does here. Cooled off a mite today, but i's been pretty brutal here. Birds have a tarp over the run, which is under a large Maple, and they were still milling around with wings spread & mouths open yesterday, til I emptied the full ice maker into their water bowl yesterday.

We get a bit of humidity with the summer monsoons, bot nothing like what you get, I'm sure. It's been about 88 degrees but cools off to around 60 at night. Last few mornings you can really tell that the weather is turning though.

I have a soaker hose on a timer that waters the comfrey at the end of my run. I have a big loop of the hose in the chicken run, so it makes an area of damp earth they can dig down and lay in. It really seems to help.

 

[AmyLynn2374]

Some great points this evening by everyone!! Even if my little guy dies, I think all these points will give many readers something to think about! So I'm glad to have sparked so many things for folks to consider. I very much appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.

to all!!

Decisions suck.... but no matter what you always have the learning experiences, good or bad. I do so hope he makes it after fighting so hard against the odds.

I do have a prime membership. Sorry about that.

Tease!!!! lol

 

[WalnutHill]

Yes, I agree, breed from the strongest. But... this is where my opinion differs from main stream. By basing the definition of "strongest" on hatching performance, we're only looking at a very small sliver of the pie. And, I'm in no way saying that folks who let the chick who needs help out of the shell die are NOT looking at the whole pie. I know that most of the folks who are hatching eggs are also culling within their flock, so they are constantly looking to see who stays to play in the gene pool an other year, and who goes. So much criteria to look at, even for the back yard breeder with a barn yard mix.

So, hatching performance is a small, but important piece. The question that I continue to ask is this: By letting the chick die in the incubator, are we truly culling our flocks for future hatching strength? Common sense says yes. Now, look a bit further, and ask, "Why is this particular chick having difficulty getting out of the shell?" I'm left questioning my skill at providing artificial incubation that matches the needs of the chick all the way from embryo to hatchling. At best, it's an artificial means. We all know that a "good" Mama Broody does it best. Even a Mama broody who's never seen a chick before, never incubated an egg before is capable of hatching eggs in far less than ideal circumstances. If Mama got a parade for successful hatches, she'd be getting one with every clutch she sets, I imagine! So, I have an inferior incubator, I make mistakes, errors in judgement, temps and humidity are not always perfect. For that matter, we most likely still don't know what perfect is. Then, look at the eggs: genetic flaws... hopefully, those are the ones that die no matter what we do. Then, there's nutrition. I tried an experiment where I had my flock on supplemental vitamins in addition to high protein. I figured that would improve my hatch rate, right? WRONG! Worst hatch ever! Chicks did great right up to lock down. Then, I had the highest percentage of DIS ever. IMO, these chicks had too much of a good thing going. They grew too big to be able to position for a good hatch. So, I'll continue to be of the opinion that a chick that is the result of an assisted hatch, CAN grow out to be an important contributor to the gene pool. It's no fault of the hen who laid the egg, or of the chick if he's too big for the container he was given to grow in. It's no fault of the hen or the chick if the temp or humidity is off, and he ends up being glued, or delayed. Just as human babies sometimes need to be delivered by cesarean deliveries, and they sometimes need to spend time in NICU, that does not mean that they are genetically inferior. We've all heard of the NICU baby who goes on to be a foot ball star, or is smarter than all of her class mates!

So, I'll remain red. I'm early in my hatching career. I may shift to the blue side in the future, and I absolutely understand and respect the "Don't interfere. If the chick is not strong enough to hatch, I won't assist, and I won't have to cull a little fluff ball later when he has problems." I truly respect that! But, I'll continue to assist as needed. I'm thankful that all of the chicks that I've assisted have gone on to grow well. 24 hours later, I can't tell which chick was assisted, and which one was not.

I agree with what you said, but have a few reflections.

Most of my hatches earlier this year were in substandard incubators, or with shipped eggs, or with eggs that had been deeply chilled. Those turkey poults, those that made it to lockdown, would not have hatched without what I will call interference rather than assistance. While I killed a few accidentally by breaking in too early, the issues I struggled with included too-large babies, poor humidity control (too high during incubation, too low during lockdown), and a flock fed on a standard layer mash diet.

As the summer progressed, my incubation techniques and equipment both improved, and I was able to set eggs from my flock, which ruled out shipping damage as well as deep chilling (other than this last set). Finally, I had turkeys hatching when I wasn't even home to watch! I still lost a few that were too big to hatch on their own, but that was due to the genetics of the cross I was making.

This last set was done with Brinsea incubators, textbook aircell progression, and perfect lockdown humidity. Unfortunately, the eggs were condemned from the start due to the extended deep refrigeration. That two hatched was amazing, and that they are healthy is even more so.

In the early hatches, I ended up with some chicks with swollen heads and necks, some twisted toes, some splay legs, some neurological issues, some protruding navel and even one that literally spilled its guts. If I hadn't tried to make up for my imperfect incubation by assisting, these chicks would have been DIS. But I thought I could make up for my errors by "helping".

Next year is a new season. I have more breeding stock to choose from, they will be on a better diet, and they will be incubated in quality incubators. I may still have to assist some of the hybrids, but only because they are too big. Other than providing a door, they will be on their own. Whatever does not hatch within a 24 hour window, probably won't hatch. By taking my errors out of the equation, the chicks have a better chance.

 

[FridayYet]

I agree with what you said, but have a few reflections.

Most of my hatches earlier this year were in substandard incubators, or with shipped eggs, or with eggs that had been deeply chilled. Those turkey poults, those that made it to lockdown, would not have hatched without what I will call interference rather than assistance. While I killed a few accidentally by breaking in too early, the issues I struggled with included too-large babies, poor humidity control (too high during incubation, too low during lockdown), and a flock fed on a standard layer mash diet.

As the summer progressed, my incubation techniques and equipment both improved, and I was able to set eggs from my flock, which ruled out shipping damage as well as deep chilling (other than this last set). Finally, I had turkeys hatching when I wasn't even home to watch! I still lost a few that were too big to hatch on their own, but that was due to the genetics of the cross I was making.

This last set was done with Brinsea incubators, textbook aircell progression, and perfect lockdown humidity. Unfortunately, the eggs were condemned from the start due to the extended deep refrigeration. That two hatched was amazing, and that they are healthy is even more so.

In the early hatches, I ended up with some chicks with swollen heads and necks, some twisted toes, some splay legs, some neurological issues, some protruding navel and even one that literally spilled its guts. If I hadn't tried to make up for my imperfect incubation by assisting, these chicks would have been DIS. But I thought I could make up for my errors by "helping".

Next year is a new season. I have more breeding stock to choose from, they will be on a better diet, and they will be incubated in quality incubators. I may still have to assist some of the hybrids, but only because they are too big. Other than providing a door, they will be on their own. Whatever does not hatch within a 24 hour window, probably won't hatch. By taking my errors out of the equation, the chicks have a better chance.

Really good post Walnut.

The more variables you have under control, the more appropriate assists should be. In other words, once you have corrected everything you can correct, theoretically there should be less assists needed in the first place.

Thanks for sharing your progression!

 

[sideWing]

Like Don said, you clean up after em so do what you like.

 

[FridayYet]

Like Don said, you clean up after em so do what you like.

Yup, the abbreviated version.

I've also heard, "you buy the feed, you do what you want."