Should I try and kill this bobcat?

[mowin]

I didn't expect this thread to spark such a lively and varied discussion, but it's very interesting, so I'm glad it did!

I can see both sides of the issue - hence my extreme hesitation to go after the bobcat, and my failure to do so even in the second year of predation. But I do believe that discussions of morality, as applied to predators, don't really have a place. Predators live solely by killing other animals, day in and day out. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of animals die terrifying, agonizing deaths at the jaws and claws of one single bobcat. If there is any moral code at play, as far as the bobcat, coyote, fox, etc. is concerned, it's only this:

Might makes right.

So because nature has evolved the predator to have the need and ability to kill numerous other animals to live, it has the moral right to do so, regardless of those other animals' desire (right?) to live?

If that's true, then by the same token, those animals that have evolved the ability to kill the predator have the right to do so as well. Might makes right.

Sure, the bobcat needs to eat animals to live. It has a whole forest of squirrels, birds, and other small animals to eat. If it comes to my land, despite the many warnings I've given it by chasing it away and stealing its would-be meals, and it persists in trying to kill my animals, then I have a "right" to kill it. Just the same as it has a "right" to kill whatever it can get its claws into.

For predators like the bobcat and me, might makes right.

Does the bobcat have the right to kill your livestock that you have done everything you are willing to do,(Price, labor). When does one have the right to say you failed because you decided to free range?

I can say without a doubt my flock see me walking towards the coops and get so excited. They are expect to be let loose. They are definitely happier than the flock that has never seen outside the run fence.

I can make the argument, that your flock that you keep locked up is not as happy as mine. It's a valid discussion, is it not? Yes if they never get to experience the freedom, how can they be happy?
I get it, alive and safe but no freedom is what some do. I have a 5' fence that the coops are in patrolled by my dogs. Some are saying I'm negligent in security, and I should let losses happen, because they were here first.

Sorry, I bought the livestock. I paid the feed. I paid for the fencing.

 

[cassie]

I lived just north of Corona, CA and had coyotes in my backyard regularly. They killed a 45 lb Sulcata tortoise that had his den on our back patio, they killed our neighbor's cat and two jumped a 6' block wall to kill and carry off another neighbor's mini Dachshund. Packs of dozens of coyotes would come out of the Santa Ana river bottom to prowl through the neighborhood at dusk. They are bold and generally not particularly afraid of humans.

Have you ever seen what coyotes do with dogs? They have one coyote lead the dog farther and farther afield and, when the dog is tired and far from help, the pack appears and tears the dog apart. There aren't many dogs that can hold up against ten or a dozen coyotes baiting it the way hyenas wear down a lion.

The coyotes in my current neighborhood- 15 to 50 acre homesteads out in the county south of Waco, TX- has plenty of fat coyotes used to eating trash, chickens, a neighbor's peafowl, another neighbor's lambs, etc. No coyote will ever work hard to hunt down a young deer when there's a much easier meal waiting behind a layer of plywood or chicken wire.

As long as I'm legally able to, any animal capable of harming me, a family member, a pet or one of our animals will be dispatched as quickly as possible.

All I can tell you is that while I had a lot of coyotes I had no trouble with them. I had livestock guardian dogs and they did a good job of protecting my livestock. At the time I owned horses, cattle, goats, pigs, and a few sheep. As for poultry, I had chickens, geese, and ducks. And peafowl. Lots of peafowl. You mentioned the coyotes getting peafowl. I was infested with peafowl and I wouldn't have minded if they made off with a few of them. They never did. I couldn't catch the darn things and the coyotes wouldn't have been able to either. They were fast, they could fly, and they spent a lot of time on the barn roof and in high trees.

Livestock guardian dogs did a good job of protecting the neighboring sheep herds also. I had Komondors, but most of the livestock guard dogs I saw with the sheep were Pyrenees. There were quite a few sheep where I lived, and when you saw the sheep you saw the dogs. At certain times of the year the sheep were moved around to graze off alfalfa fields. They were confined with portable temporary fencing and accompanied by the dogs.

I was in the central valley of California, not in Texas. I don't know if that makes a difference. Also, the coyotes were not really acclimated to people because there was no reason for them to be. I don't know if that makes a difference either.

 

[BelovedBirds]

I didn't expect this thread to spark such a lively and varied discussion, but it's very interesting, so I'm glad it did!

I can see both sides of the issue - hence my extreme hesitation to go after the bobcat, and my failure to do so even in the second year of predation. But I do believe that discussions of morality, as applied to predators, don't really have a place. Predators live solely by killing other animals, day in and day out. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of animals die terrifying, agonizing deaths at the jaws and claws of one single bobcat. If there is any moral code at play, as far as the bobcat, coyote, fox, etc. is concerned, it's only this:

Might makes right.

So because nature has evolved the predator to have the need and ability to kill numerous other animals to live, it has the moral right to do so, regardless of those other animals' desire (right?) to live?

If that's true, then by the same token, those animals that have evolved the ability to kill the predator have the right to do so as well. Might makes right.

Sure, the bobcat needs to eat animals to live. It has a whole forest of squirrels, birds, and other small animals to eat. If it comes to my land, despite the many warnings I've given it by chasing it away and stealing its would-be meals, and it persists in trying to kill my animals, then I have a "right" to kill it. Just the same as it has a "right" to kill whatever it can get its claws into.

For predators like the bobcat and me, might makes right.

I agree largely with what you're saying, I think thats a reasonable perspective- Personally I would still be very reluctant to kill it, if your birds are loose/not secure. I think prevention is the best method here, but if that bobcat was getting through your security- and nothing was working to keep it out, or if there are other animals which can't made secure enough-then i agree, it has to be dealt with!

 

[BelovedBirds]

Does the bobcat have the right to kill your livestock that you have done everything you are willing to do,(Price, labor). When does one have the right to say you failed because you decided to free range?

I can say without a doubt my flock see me walking towards the coops and get so excited. They are expect to be let loose. They are definitely happier than the flock that has never seen outside the run fence.

I can make the argument, that your flock that you keep locked up is not as happy as mine. It's a valid discussion, is it not? Yes if they never get to experience the freedom, how can they be happy?
I get it, alive and safe but no freedom is what some do. I have a 5' fence that the coops are in patrolled by my dogs. Some are saying I'm negligent in security, and I should let losses happen, because they were here first.

Sorry, I bought the livestock. I paid the feed. I paid for the fencing.

Still, though, free ranging an animal in an area full of dangers
Regardless of the prices paid and the care taken, you have to expect losses. It's going to happen. And the answer cant always be to kill, some predators are protected.

 

[mowin]

Ii,

Still, though, free ranging an animal in an area full of dangers
Regardless of the prices paid and the care taken, you have to expect losses. It's going to happen. And the answer cant always be to kill, some predators are protected.

Hawks, eagle's and other birds of prey that are protected get a pass. I understand that it's my risk to free range. However my free range is inside a 2 acre 5' tall fenced in backyard. My answer is to kill the predators that breach that fence weather or not the chicken's happen to be out of there coop. 99% of people around me that have livestock do the same thing. I can assure you that the fox, coyotes, coon, are far from extinction.

 

[littlecoopnextdoor]

Ii,

Hawks, eagle's and other birds of prey that are protected get a pass. I understand that it's my risk to free range. However my free range is inside a 2 acre 5' tall fenced in backyard. My answer is to kill the predators that breach that fence weather or not the chicken's happen to be out of there coop. 99% of people around me that have livestock do the same thing. I can assure you that the fox, coyotes, coon, are far from extinction.

perhaps far from extinction, but play an important part in the local ecosystem, no less.

 

[mowin]

perhaps far from extinction, but play an important part in the local ecosystem, no less.

If you mean Cary numerous diseases, rip holes in houses and kill lots of livestock, then ya...
Most areas are way over populated with predators. The culture of wearing fur is bad hasn't helped. Very few trappers to help keep the numbers down as fur prices are way down. Not worth the effort.
Killing some is definitely not harming the ecosystem.

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

I agree, many predators have moved way past there nook.

 

[Lenny loves chickens]

I say if you are leaving your birds out for prey then the cat has the right of way...its nature. I free range my chickens but I accept the deaths and if one dies they get locked up for a week

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

I say if you are leaving your birds out for prey then the cat has the right of way...its nature. I free range my chickens but I accept the deaths and if one dies they get locked up for a week

It is also nature to protect what is ours... like our animals.