Show Off Your Games!

There is no lack of genetic diversity in chickens, in fact there is A LOT MORE considering every chicken breed and strain and line within every breed in the world originated from two (or possibly three) 'breeds' of jungle fowl. Consider the fact that every breed of everything shaped by man utilized inbreeding/linebreeding. It trips me out when owners of 'pure' breeds say things like, "I would never inbreed/linebreed'. They may not HAVE TO inbreed because someone else did it for them, but they really should become more educated about the endeavor they have undertaken.

First, they don't realize that they wouldn't even have their pure breed to breed if it hadn't been inbred/linebred to begin with, that's how it was created! otherwise, we would have jungle fowl and wolf dog things etc.

Second, people appiont themselves as 'breeders', believing that if they take the result of real breeders work and allow some of THEIR animals to reproduce that that is all it takes to be a breeder and they obviouly don't even have a rudimentary understanding of breeding practices. Now if you want to let some chickens reproduce THAT'S FINE but YOU ARE NOT A BREEDER you are a FEEDER.

Third....you can't just inbreed indescrimenantly. You have to know what to inbreed, why to inbreed, when to outcross, why to outcross, when to infuse etc, and know that the rules are different among species. Although the concept is the same, some of the methods used with breeding chickens...maybe not so good or bad with dogs for example.

Forth...understand why you have to cull. An old saying amognst dog breeders is, 'those who will not drown, must not breed'. Cruel right? Then DON'T BREED! If you are going to breed gamefowl seriously then you must AT LEAST UNDERSTAND WHY we have 'PURE' BREEDS and WHY WE MAKE CROSSES (Hybrids) OF 'PURE' OVER 'PURE' wheather it's full over full or full over half or whatever. You should know WHAT you are doing and WHY and HOW.

I feel like I'm lecturing you Laura Von Smurf, forgive me and trust me I'm not. You know a lot and you're learning a lot I can tell. This is hopefully for the BENEFIT of anyone reading. You don't buy a car and decide you are going to take the engine apart and put it together in alphabetical order according to the first letter of the parts names and tell all the engineers and mechanics that anyone can have an OPINION lol. Instead of basing your 'breeding program' on what you've heard other people say without considering if they have a clue as to what they are talking about and averaging everyones opinion and then setting out to reinvent the wheel....WHY NOT JUST LEARN (LEARN, LEARN, LEARN) HOW IT'S BEEN DONE FOR CENTURIES.

This is basic stuff. It's not my stuff. It's how it's done.

And this is basically the only thing i'm actually directing to you personally Laura Von Smurf. I saw in a prevous post where you were helping someone on how to breed and cull to get back to white skin, I think it was Shubin but can't remember. I'm no gentics guru and thankfully I don't have to be, but it looked like everyting you said made sense to me. I would say though, while it's great to understand gentetics and all that that entails, don't get blindsided by that alone. That's more imporant if you want to know things like, if you mix yellow and green you get blue. If you ever decide you want to breed gamefowl, you can forget ALL of that. And I mean YOU CAN FORGET ALL OF THAT. I don't mean to oversimplify it, a good eye for qaulity, knowing the differnt breeds and strains and what nicks, even a little intuition maybe and So Much More...However the basics are....You need to know how to breed the best to the best and when you get the BESTEST (humor) you start AN INTELLIGENT inbreeding AND/OR linebreeding program and lock in those traits so you can have a hundred just like 'em on your yard and know what to cross those on once they're set as a family.. .Beats the heck out of shooting in the dark. Back to that particular post though, if he had been breeding (yes i'm going to say it) correctly and purposefully then he wouldn't have had the problems to cull to begin with and he wouldn't have to spend years and hundreds of dollars feeding culls and all that work to correct it AND/OR he wouldn't care what color the skin was because eventually it would all become white or yellow or pink or purple, who cares? If you care whatt color their skin is, you probaly have the wrong breed.

I know there are folks reading this who are thinking, "who does this guy think he is?". That's fine, but I'm going to say it anyway. You have every right to 'throw out the baby and keep the bathwater' if you want to, I agree, and there's enough people out there who understand as much that will probably agree it's a great idea to do so.

Thanks in advance for letting me release what's on my mind here on your post and I hope you get something out of this too although most of it is to contribute to the thread and not intended for you personally. I think you are an intellegent person and based our few communications before, I believe you are extremely capable of listening to what I have to say and receiving it as intended without feeling defensive. Also, I am human and I make mistakes (hope this isn't one of them haha) but if I can help anyone, I think that is far more valuable than worrying if they might be thin skinned.

Thanks again Laura Von Smurf

goodpost.gif


First I would like to state I took the article/study with "a grain of salt" for a reason and that is sometimes people do not present all the facts, they have an agenda, and then skew the study or findings to their agenda. I am suspicious the info I read might be such a study or a study taken out of context... thus I also made sure to state I had some concerns about the source material but had not done a follow up. Still have not... I did not bookmark that article. There is a lot of bad science, articles based on bad science and poorly done studies being passed around on many subjects. It burns my biscuits, I want well done studies, not political agendas by a sociologist (who just made up the data anyway), or a company or group of companies trying to target a competing food or other junk studies for dubious goals.
somad.gif


I am a big believer in figuring out your genetics: one of your stock, two of any stock you introduce to a breeding program, and three understanding how the genes interact, split, mutate, compound, suppress, and so on so you can achieve your goals. I am this way because when I attended school I was heavily chided for stating that the basic r/D thing was not 100% as to getting you results, as I had observed in real animals it only sort of worked that way. I knew from observation that something else was going on, and that the opinions of the people breeding was right on and could be observed in various species including humans. I tried to explain but I was just wrong & filled with "uneducated ideas & superstitions". Turns out I was right on a lot of what I had observed in the breeding of animals on my great-grand parents farm & what I had been taught to me as a child about breeding was right on genetically. All of the stuff I observed or was taught as breeding rule of thumb if you will actually have genetic reasons behind them that someone in science has now studied and proved or explained. I also believe in studying all the old stuff/knowledge, as they are/where actually breeding not just doing the math. (Just found some electronic scans of some old poultry books I have been hunting for just for this reason). Theory is nice and all, but I want results.
wink.png
I believe science is our friend, but we should not be quick to denigrate generations of breeding/keeping advice that has worked either.

I want to say I am not offended, and your advice in my opinion is right on. I consider my self a novice, yes I had chickens which I did well with including Jungle Fowl/Bird, but a lot has changed between then & now. Thus my learn, learn, learn activities while I wait till I can have them again. I want to do it better and up my game so to speak. A lot of my understanding on breeding comes from being around people who do/did breed animals for a living, mainly horses and dog folks though. I had certain things drummed into my head concerning breeding as a child by the farm side of the family, with real visible results in the offspring for me to see. Now chickens are a wee bit different, they where around but no one ever spoke to me specifically about breeding them or even how do you know if one bird is good or bad.
hu.gif
Just the mammals... so everything I have learned about chickens has been via individual friends (who gave me my first chick), 4-H mom me dragging the kids about to project meetings in the olden days (I am Grandma now) and most recently the net... so novice absolutely.

You have all good points:

Personally I think as long as many breeds are being maintained and differences in the breed and between breeds is maintained biodiversity will be okay. There are lines I think maybe are bottled neck for various reasons or have hurt their ability to reproduce in certain breeds or lines, but that is all fixable with a little common sense in my opinion. There is always a danger to of fad breeding which always results in my observation in poor breeding of animals. There is also the danger of people just not breeding a breed any longer, crossing it out of existence or destroying through crossing or bad breeding the unique traits it was bred for.

I agree for a breed to develop it must start someplace with usually a small pool of animals (aka line breeding), or sometimes an exceptional animal that then left their strong genetic mark on other animals. Horse example would be the Morgan Breed, one stallion so improved and left clear genetic traits that it started a breed, a stallion that can do that is btw extremely rare for a bunch of genetic reasons.

I agree willy-nilly breeding gets you willy-nilly results, thus my hand banging
he.gif
, hurt the head reading on genetics (oh so much to learn arg), I do however like to see what people have crossed, what results they have gotten as it helps me have a better idea how genes can express past the theory. Plus heck some crosses are stunning, but to breed with no goal will result in problems down the road in my opinion especially in a small chicken flock.

I also agree inbreeding indiscriminately will also create problems. I do think you need to be very choosy and careful with any breeding plan.

Totally agree with culling: Keep the best, eat the rest... is a good motto in my opinion. I also think if you are unwilling to face the fact that you will have to cull if you breed then you should not breed. I learned about culling and you can't keep them all on the farm as a kid.

To have hybrid vigor (I have mixed feelings about this term btw) you have to have pure bred, same applies to line-breeding and then crossing those lines within a breed to get the best of, so if you like a certain cross purebred or mixed breed it is important for you to maintain a good healthy breeding pool of the two groups. To do this I agree you must understand the what you are maintaining in your genetic pools and how to do that. I also would like to point out and I am sure you will agree that you can not get "hybrid vigor" by using defective, genetically flawed stock... genetically poor animals crossed with genetically poor animals will still equal genetically poor birds/dogs/horses etc. I find it appalling people breed animals that should not be bred with obvious genetic defects and then are all shocked when most are so deformed they have to be put down/culled or will develop serious problems latter. One bad animal genetically can quickly destroy a breeding pool.

I also agree you do have to consider the whole animal... not just the parts. I only mentioned the Skin Genes as it occurred to me when looking at the birds it might be helpful, but in the end the whole bird is more important.

Honestly you and I probably see eye to eye on a lot of the breeding stuff in general even though my breeding experience comes from mammals as a child and is very limited (I did get to pick a few breedings based on what I was being taught) and by watching other people breed for results in their animals.

BTW I am thick skinned.
big_smile.png
 
Brother I don't know how else to say this, but I'm going to give you some feedback and remember, the first step in getting better is admitting you have a problem lol. You stated earlier that you are breeding to recreate a chicken whoose name was Fabio. If That is the case, then what you have presented here can only represent a ill planned attempt unless you only wanted to recreate HALF of Fabio because half is the best you can get and your chicken math is wrong too. I made a few notes and even though this diagram is embedded in this post I can hardly see it with my glasses on so don't crucify me if I make a mistake please. Also, recreating a chicken is wierd for me as opposed to setting traits, but here goes...

The other chickens that aren't offspring of Fabio don't count in recreating Fabio. Repeat, they don't count in recreating Fabio. Fionna is 1/2 Fabio and Champ is 1/4 Fabio.

Leiper Hen #2 is half Fabio.

Champ (1/4) = 2/8ths can only lend half his genetics to his offspring so he can only contribute 1/8th Fabio.
x
Leiper Hatch Hen #2 is half = 4/8ths Fabio and she can only contribute 2/8ths sooooo

Fallow is 3/8ths (less than half) Fabio




If Gamer is the son of Fabio x unrelated YL Hatch hen then obviosly he is 1/2 Fabio or 4/8ths not 7/8ths

and that's the best you are ever going to get out of this line up.

If you really wanted to more or less clone Fabio there would have been much better options, but as he has now passed...half is all you're going to get.
I know its a mess. lol Not nearly as scientific or orderly as "breeder" would do.

Its just a hobby for me and I don't make any claims to have the best breeding program or practices. I just like selecting good gamecocks and breeding them with good game hens. Pairing up good broodfowl is fun and its exciting to the results. I day dream about what crosses I want procure and what traits I want to select for/against... Other times I let nature do the selecting for me and sometimes I select at random when I cannot make up mind. I even arranged to have a fellow blogger one here send me a surprise batch of game eggs. Lol

But one thing is for sure, I do my best to only breed good quality gamefowl. I say intuition and experience is what guides me the most, not genetics, fancy breeding programs or chicken math. I strive for general purpose good quality gamefowl that I can be proud of.. I have had gamefowl for about 7-8 years but I am still young and learning like crazy. I appreciate feedback I get from everybody as it helps a lot.

So thanks for helping me with my chicken math Regular Guy. Good to know someone can make sense of my cobweb breeding history. lol If you want to go through my pictures (Click on profile and go to my website) and provide any feedback that would be great.
 
Last edited:
I have a thought
hide.gif


JS have you considered writing down what you liked about Fabio? I am just thinking if you had a clear idea of all the traits you liked in Fabio then it might be easier for you to evaluate your other birds for the purposes of breeding another cock that gives you the same joy. It might make it easier too to focus on which birds descended from Fabio have those traits.

Regular Guy is right the math will never be as close as you want but it does not mean you still can't breed another good bird.

I know how it is when you have that special one animal... I have had a few in my life, one a dog, one a racing horse.
 
I know its a mess. lol Not nearly as scientific or orderly as "breeder" would do.

Its just a hobby for me and I don't make any claims to have the best breeding program or practices. I just like selecting good gamecocks and breeding them with good game hens. Pairing up good broodfowl is fun and its exciting to the results. I day dream about what crosses I want procure and what traits I want to select for/against... Other times I let nature do the selecting for me and sometimes I select at random when I cannot make up mind. I even arranged to have a fellow blogger one here send me a surprise batch of game eggs. Lol

But one thing is for sure, I do my best to only breed good quality gamefowl. I say intuition and experience is what guides me the most, not genetics, fancy breeding programs or chicken math. I strive for general purpose good quality gamefowl that I can be proud of.. I have had gamefowl for about 7-8 years but I am still young and learning like crazy. I appreciate feedback I get from everybody as it helps a lot.

So thanks for helping me with my chicken math Regular Guy. Good to know someone can make sense of my cobweb breeding history. lol If you want to go through my pictures (Click on profile and go to my website) and provide any feedback that would be great.


You are doing just fine. Remember what I have said about these things in the past. There are two kinds of people in the world, those that follow what others have decided to be correct (followers) and those that decided to do things their own way (Leaders). Everything that followers follow was created by a leader at some point. Don't let anyone tell you what is right or wrong about your birds based what other people decided is correct or incorrect. You know what you like and what you want. As long as your are happy with what you get, who cares whether it conforms to someone else's idea of what it should be.
 
Are these your fowl?

That rooster has a lot of white in tail/wings!
Yes their mine. The rooster my brother gave it to me from a friend of him. He saw the wing band from slick lizard and that's why he got it for me. But i really don't know what it is. And the pullet i bought it straight from slick lizard.
 

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom