Show Off Your Games!

Explain which part you think is wrong..

As far as adding non-game blood, it is possible to get gameness from a non-game hybrid. Its a trait just like any other, it can bred into or out of any bloodline. I have seen it personally. Where do you think muffed games came from? It wasnt creationism, it was bred with non-game blood and bred back with game.
I believe it is possible, but especially with today's laws it would be nearly impossible to have a bird that possessed true gameness from crossing in Phoenix or other birds. I have heard of it being done, in the gamecock years ago there was a story of a woman's rooster that was 1/4 Leghorn winning everywhere he went until sold for brood stock. But, that bird still carries 1/4 junk blood and has the possibility to throw junk a lot more easily than say; A good hatch cock that has been on a fellows yard for 50 years and selected properly.

I have had numerous non-game X games. Junglefowl X American game, Silkie X American Game, Australorp X Game, and even some junk American game X game American games. And I have personally never had one show true gameness. I've seen Silkie X AG's fight for about 30 minutes to an hour on the yard years ago before running; but if ever put to the real test they wouldn't last long and I would expect this of the rest as well when even "pure" American games are not always game (notoriously known, any sweater strain).

Gameness is not only aggressive nature to other birds. If that is a fact, my Leghorns are game. My Kraienköppe are game. My aunts EE is game, and so are the silkies and Brahmas she had. That freaking EE rooster will try his hardest to beat anything that crosses his path but it will usually only last a few minutes and he's running away while true gamefowl will fight for days if they live that long.

That being said, is this breeding "Wrong"? It depends on the goals. If you are looking to preserve true gamefowl, stop now. If you are doing like I am now and not really worried about breeding games anymore so you like to have surrogate mothers and free rangers or some crap like that. It's perfectly fine, I've got pullets all over the yard now that are crosses of games X EE, games X Buff Leghorn, etc. But they will only be surrogate mothers and chicken and dumplings; they are not to be bred back to gamefowl as it can never make them better in anyway. I wouldn't just assume either that muffed games got their muffs from yard fowl, if I recall correctly there is a study out there somewhere that the muff genes came from Oriental gamefowl (which inhabits most production/heavy breeds veins: Orloff, Rhode Islands, Kraienköppe, etc) but someone like Saladin or some of the other greater poultry historians can probably correct me on this. Trust me though when I say it isn't 50/50, I have seen numerous game hybrids (even ones I did not own) and I never saw a true game bird come out of them first hand and accounts that have are very rare- to most peoples view non-existent.

I'm not encouraging cockfighting or anything like that, but I assume that you have not had the opportunity to truly see real gamefowl and as a result just do not and possibly cannot understand. But to people like me that have been around them for four generations and seen basically everything there is to see with primarily American gamefowl (years ago, like I said I don't breed them pure anymore), I can assure you that by the breeding practices you mentioned you will very rarely (maybe 1 in a million) get a true gamecock from such a cross.

So: If you want gamefowl, decide if you want to preserve true gamefowl- then research what it takes and if it's worth it from good breeders on this forum and others. If you just want project birds to play with like I do, go ahead and cross them with yard fowl even better just find another breed like I also did. I rather like my Buff Leghorns and Kraienköppe; the Kraienköppe meet basically everything the games did except on one thing: I can allow more than one cock to free range without ending up with only 1 or no cocks left.

If you want the traits in true gamefowl you're crossing for, do some research on some of the old game strains that are very rare and need breeders. Blue berg muffs for muffed birds, Silver quill (like Fayoumi's) you have the Joe Redmond greys; Flerry eyed greys or Claibournes for Toppy's; Miner Blues for blue blood; Hainan Gamefowl or Herman Pinion Yellow legged hatch for long tails; there are many out there with every shape, size, and color imaginable pretty much. It just doesn't have much reason to add production fowl other than for sometimes interesting free rangers or project birds.

God bless,
Daniel.

ETA: No hatchery will have true game stock. They may have "Gamey" birds, but the birds will not be game. But like I said, if you just want something to have on the yard or if it is a pure muffed OEG you want for show. Go for it, but keep in mind they will never be "game" by terms of true gameness in many gamefowl breeders terms.
 
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And on the "breeding abnormalities that can show up" by line breeding; line breeding will only show you what is in the line. True, good breeders, have kept their lines just as good or improved them for fifty years by line breeding. I have seen it many times, and even many of the old show fowl breeders (like Fred P. Jeffrey) encourage a closed flock.

When you have a open flock that outcrosses every generation you are adding so much genetic material it is hard to predict the results because of recessive genes. Your stock may not carry wry tail but someone else's line does, great, so you added that but didn't know and now all of your birds have wry tail.

The occasional out-cross may be good, but I don't know one breeder who really has good fowl that does not practice some form of line breeding. I have seen a lot of open flocks though ruin birds quickly.

I do not mean to sound harsh, but I am someone who likes to be honest about everything I say even if it is a negative about myself or is not exactly what someone wanted to hear.

God bless,
Daniel.
 
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I appreciate your honesty and no offense taken. Seems like you know more than I do about Gamefowl, what I spew is just from things that I have seen personally.

I personally dont have any game x non-game crosses, but have seen friends do it with their backyard fowl and they produce some tough roosters.

I have never fought any of my birds in a cockfight, but I have been to a handful of fights. I am no expert on the subject, but I have seen "pure" gamebirds from winning cockers (thats where my stock came from). But you kind of proved my point there with the 1/4 leghorn, you can win with crosses. There are varying degrees of gameness, but how much does it really take to win fights? How often do fights go on for days or even hours? Sounds like you need breed/train for stamina more than gameness.

You have to give credit to individual birds, each one has the ability to win (or loose). You dont need to trace your rooster back to the 1900's bloodline to have a True gamefowl. You dont need to have a physcotic bird to be called game. Game birds need more than gameness, there are other traits that count.

As far as abonormalities go, you are probably right, there are ways around it... but you need a lot of birds. I didnt have that luxury and experienced some unhealthy chicks and high mortality rate after a few years of a closed flock. I added some gentics and now have a closed flock again, but with higher genetic diversity.
 
I'm by no means a game fowl expert or a game dog expert. I've been around game dogs far longer than chickens. Breeding pure breads is the fastest way to get what you want. But both species came from years of selective cross breeding.this is why there are so many color variations of both. If this wasn't true, you would basically only have one type or breed of these species. You can most definately create your own breed of game fowl. It will take, like I said, years and years, to get to a point where you have breeding birds that only throw true game fowl. Even then not a 100% of these said game fowl will truly be "Game". I know this to be a fact in game dogs. I've been around them half my life. You can breed champions with each other and only get maybe 2 out of 8-10 pups that have a real game mentality. I know some of you die hard game fowl breeders will probably disagree with me, but this is my interpretation of all the reading I've done ver the years and seeing with my own eyes. More power to those of you breeding your own lines. I for one, would be one of those people, if I had more experience with chickens. I'm gonna stick to what I enjoy a little more, being my game and hunting dogs. I'll just keep to raising my back yard flock.
 
I do not support fighting nor was I implying that anyone should breed for fighting purposes. I was trying to prove a point, that to be game doesn't take 100 years of pure breeding. I agree with you Jungle explorer, some people want to maintain what they think is pure while others like to set there own standards. And like graybeard said, that's why there is so much diversity because people added unusual breeds to get the traits they wanted while maintaining gameness.

I think it's time to show off ours games and stop arguing about it.
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Agreed. Good lookin birds JShubin. I only have, what I think is a game cross pullet. In the market for getting a few good gamefowl after I breed a second coop/pen.
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This is my favorite. Top dog in the coop, don't take any crap off the boys. Follows me around like a puppy. 14 weeks old. I'm not exactly sure what she really is. She was a gift along with 5 other chickens for my daughter from her uncle, who also knows nothing about chickens.
 
Graybeard... I like the looks of her. I have a couple hens with similar color feathering. Mine have green legs though...
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If you didn't live so far away I offer you a young rooster. . I have too many and not enough room

Just curious what kind of dogs do you breed?
 
PBT's and Beagles.
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This is my long time stud. Best dog I've ever had and , I've had roughly 20 bullies. He is a Eli x Nicorena cross. He's fathered 8 litters with several different females and always throws one male just like him, a chocolate red nose and a buckskin/ black mask. ALWAYS. I also have a Red red nose girl( who doesn't like the camera) who is all Midnight cowboy out Louisiana. I'm not a fighter and don't condone it in anyway but, I won't breed or own a dog that has any quit to them. And they MUST be easily handled by people, especially kids.
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I don't really breed for color, size or head shape. They must have a true temperament and heart of a lion. I used to not be a fan of the Blue dogs until him, since they are not known to be short winded and oversized. He is an exception at 67 lbs. he can run alongside my 4 wheeler at 35 mph and clear a 6' fence standing still. And my beagles( unregistered) will make a trial dog look like they're standing still tracking down a bunny. But I could go on and on even longer about my dogs.
 
That dog is a champion. .. you'd do well breeding gamefowl.. you obviously know what it takes to breed good quality. My dad bred German shepherds that's why I asked.. they were game toobut in a different way.here's a pup I just picked upnot too long ago.
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Here he is with my other animals
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