Show Off Your Games!

[varidgerunner]

The DNA mapping stuff is often raising more questions than answers, not just with chickens. If you compared at the DNA sequence of a hatchery Fayoumis to a Sri Lankan Jungle Fowl, I can see where it would be easy to "prove" that they weren't related. If you went to the Fayoum lake bed and were lucky enough to catch a wild chicken that hadn't been contaminated with modern domestic chickens, results might be different. Chickens might have ancestors that are now extinct, conversely, the birds that we think are ancestors, might be offspring of domestic chickens themselves. It would be a lot easier to explain yellow legs and barred feathers if the Grey Jungle Fowl was involved. Then you have the DNA model "proving" that there were no pre-Colombian chickens. People made it to Hawaii with pigs, why would it be so hard to imagine people making it to South America with chickens. I would rather ride across the Pacific in an outrigger canoe with a chicken than a pig.

But I do agree with childressJ. Gamefowl look like Jungle Fowl, because they have been selected for athleticism. Not because they have any more recent of a cross on Jungle Fowl. If you account for any contribution by the Sri Lankan Jungle Fowl into modern fowl, that would probably be the traits opposite of those selected for in games, seeing as how the males get along well enough to form prides. It would be easy to explain their contribution in terms of laying ability, too. Maybe some day, when they work the kinks out of DNA mapping, we will figure it out. Look at the old maps, they look a lot different than the ones we have now. This is relatively new science. I know of some places, in some deep hollows, that no-one has taken any DNA samples of the chickens there. And I'm sure there are many places just like that, all over the world.

 

[neugene]

Thought i would share some pics of my very good friend and mentor he has magnificent fowl..

 

[centrarchid]

I am a beginner myself and certainly no expert on wheaten color but I was not aware that recessive and dominate wheaten were distinctly different colors. In fact the chicken geneticists on the classroom @ the coop seem to be undecided if there are actually 2 distinct wheaten genes. If there were 2 distinct colors associated with recessive and dominant types there would be no doubt would there? On the question of wheaten cock color, it is indistinguishable from the wild type cock from a wild type hen, only the hens show the color difference. The only observation about wheaten cock color that I have heard is the likelihood that the wheaten cock may be more likely to be "clear hackle" ie. showing little if any of the dark stripe in the hackle feathers although I have a grey cock that is clear hackle who throws only wild type (chipmunk) striped chicks when mated to wild type hens. Wheaten chicks are generally yellow without stripes while wheaten crossed with wild type may be yellow with faint stripes rather than the bold stripes of the wild type.

It might also be noted that the basic colors are found in both lemon (gold) and grey (silver) fowl, those being controlled by a different gene altogether. So we have wheaten greys and wild type greys in addition to wheaten reds and wild type reds (and gold of course in wheaten and wild type), the wild type hen being the dark brown with black flecks colored hen. Some people call the wild type hen "partridge". Of course there are several other basic colors recognized.

Wheaton cocks / stags I grew up around could be distinguished from wildtype pretty easily. Other variations may make wheatons less different from wildtype than others. I am familiar with discussion at other site. It is an issue that needs more study and is not resolvable by simply looking at individual birds loaded down with a range of complicating mutations and no images of birds that are related and also exhibit same alleles in double and single doses.

 

[centrarchid]

The DNA mapping stuff is often raising more questions than answers, not just with chickens. If you compared at the DNA sequence of a hatchery Fayoumis to a Sri Lankan Jungle Fowl, I can see where it would be easy to "prove" that they weren't related. If you went to the Fayoum lake bed and were lucky enough to catch a wild chicken that hadn't been contaminated with modern domestic chickens, results might be different. Chickens might have ancestors that are now extinct, conversely, the birds that we think are ancestors, might be offspring of domestic chickens themselves. It would be a lot easier to explain yellow legs and barred feathers if the Grey Jungle Fowl was involved. Then you have the DNA model "proving" that there were no pre-Colombian chickens. People made it to Hawaii with pigs, why would it be so hard to imagine people making it to South America with chickens. I would rather ride across the Pacific in an outrigger canoe with a chicken than a pig.

But I do agree with childressJ. Gamefowl look like Jungle Fowl, because they have been selected for athleticism. Not because they have any more recent of a cross on Jungle Fowl. If you account for any contribution by the Sri Lankan Jungle Fowl into modern fowl, that would probably be the traits opposite of those selected for in games, seeing as how the males get along well enough to form prides. It would be easy to explain their contribution in terms of laying ability, too. Maybe some day, when they work the kinks out of DNA mapping, we will figure it out. Look at the old maps, they look a lot different than the ones we have now. This is relatively new science. I know of some places, in some deep hollows, that no-one has taken any DNA samples of the chickens there. And I'm sure there are many places just like that, all over the world.

I am a scientist during workdays. Findings I make are not called proof, rather evidence. Lots of evidence is required to indicate something is highly likely (which still not proof) and often involves considerable discussion / disagreement along the way. The term proof is more suitable for the courtroom or in mathematics.

 

[prariechiken]

Exactly, most don't remember that science is the art of "proving" your hypothesis wrong. When you cannot is when your theory has accrued supporting data that helps substantiate your theory as being more factual (note I didn't call it a "fact" as there is always room for more questioning).

And now back to pix...

Toppy Pullet

Kelso cross

 

[childressj]

Exactly, most don't remember that science is the art of "proving" your hypothesis wrong. When you cannot is when your theory has accrued supporting data that helps substantiate your theory as being more factual (note I didn't call it a "fact" as there is always room for more questioning).

And now back to pix...

Toppy Pullet

Kelso cross

Wow, that is a handsome grey hen to my eye. I see you have a red wheaten hen with blue legs also. Are they related or do you keep blue legged reds in addition to blue legged grey toppies?

Many cockers are unaware that blue and pearl legged chickens have white skin while green and yellow legged chickens have yellow skin. According to what (I think) I am told, the Id (Inhibits dermal) gene is carried by your yellow legged cock else without that gene he would be green legged while the blue legged chickens are not showing the Id gene-the Id gene will turn their blue legs pearl (white). Crosses between yellow and blue shanks can produce both yellow and white skinned offspring and the presence of the Id gene in the yellow skinned individual and the absence of the Id gene in the other individual could allow for all four colors in the offspring although not necessary in the same proportions since Id and W (white skin) are considered dominate and the Id gene is sex linked so the hen can only contribute her own color shanks whereas the cock carries a gene pair-he could be Id/id+ (with and without Id). Does everyone agree I have this correct?

 

[cubalaya]

prairiechicken nice looking birds as always.
neugene what is the wheaton hen with the huge tail? she look good

 

[prariechiken]

The pullets are not related. I don't breed for color be it feather or leg, but some of my crosses can and do produce blue/slate legs. For those interested....

The shank/feet color is controlled by genes that affect the skin at different depths. The visible color is due to the combined effect of the different colors of the dermis and the epidermis. So, the shank/feet colors are a combination of upper skin and deeper skin pigmentations. The following table gives the shank/feet colors that result from the major gene combinations (the bird has two copies of each gene). It is important to remember that other genes can modify shank and foot color. For example, the sex-linked barring gene, B, is a potent inhibitor of dermal melanin. The Barred Plymouth Rocks, for example, would not have light shanks and feet if it were not for the fact that they have sex-linked barring. The female Barred Rocks tend to have darker shanks due to the dose effect of the barring gene. The following table is intended as a guide but should not be considered to be absolute, since (as mentioned) other genes, such as sex-linked barring, can modify shank/foot color.

• Near Black with white soles W+,Id,E

• White Shanks and Feet W+,Id,e+

• Black Shanks, White Soles W+,id+,E

• Blue Shanks,White Soles W+,id+,e+

• Near Black with Yellow Soles w,Id,E

• Yellow shanks and feet w,Id,e+

• Black Shanks with Yellow Soles w.id+,E

• Green Shanks with Yellow Soles w,id+,e+

And a chart from a fowl site that is pretty ultimate

....

REFRENCE CHART FOR LEG COLOR

Cock Leg Color​

Hen Leg Color​

If Both Pure For Leg Color If Hen Not Pure For Leg Color If Cock Not Pure For Leg Color Neither Cock or Hen Pure Leg Color

Pullets​

Stags​

Pullets​

Stags​

Pullets​

Stags​

Pullets​

Stags
G​

G​

G​

G​

​

​

​

​

​

G​

Y​

G​

Y​

​

​

​

​

​

G​

B​

Y​

B​

GB​

GB​

​

​

​

G​

W​

Y​

W​

GB​

YW​

​

​

​

Y​

G​

B​

Y​

​

​

GY​

GY​

​

Y​

Y​

B​

Y​

​

​

GY​

Y​

​

Y​

B​

W​

W​

YW​

YW​

BW​

BW​

GYBW​

GYBW
Y​

W​

W​

W​

YW​

YW​

BW​

​

GYBW​

B​

G​

B​

B​

​

​

GB​

GB​

​

B​

Y​

B​

W​

​

​

GB​

YW​

​

B​

B​

B​

B​

​

​

​

​

GB​

GB
B​

W​

B​

W​

​

​

​

​

GB​

YW
W​

G​

W​

W​

​

​

GYBW​

GYBW​

​

W​

Y​

W​

W​

​

​

GYBW​

YW​

​

W​

B​

W​

W​

​

​

BW​

BW​

GYBW​

GYBW
W​

W​

W​

W​

​

​

BW​

​

GYBW​

YW​

G = Green Y = Yellow B = Blue W = White By PaulScott

 

[childressj]

The pullets are not related. I don't breed for color be it feather or leg, but some of my crosses can and do produce blue/slate legs. For those interested....

The shank/feet color is controlled by genes that affect the skin at different depths. The visible color is due to the combined effect of the different colors of the dermis and the epidermis. So, the shank/feet colors are a combination of upper skin and deeper skin pigmentations. The following table gives the shank/feet colors that result from the major gene combinations (the bird has two copies of each gene). It is important to remember that other genes can modify shank and foot color. For example, the sex-linked barring gene, B, is a potent inhibitor of dermal melanin. The Barred Plymouth Rocks, for example, would not have light shanks and feet if it were not for the fact that they have sex-linked barring. The female Barred Rocks tend to have darker shanks due to the dose effect of the barring gene. The following table is intended as a guide but should not be considered to be absolute, since (as mentioned) other genes, such as sex-linked barring, can modify shank/foot color.

• Near Black with white soles W+,Id,E

• White Shanks and Feet W+,Id,e+

• Black Shanks, White Soles W+,id+,E

• Blue Shanks,White Soles W+,id+,e+

• Near Black with Yellow Soles w,Id,E

• Yellow shanks and feet w,Id,e+

• Black Shanks with Yellow Soles w.id+,E

• Green Shanks with Yellow Soles w,id+,e+

And a chart from a fowl site that is pretty ultimate

....

REFRENCE CHART FOR LEG COLOR

Cock Leg Color​

Hen Leg Color​

If Both Pure For Leg Color If Hen Not Pure For Leg Color If Cock Not Pure For Leg Color Neither Cock or Hen Pure Leg Color

Pullets​

Stags​

Pullets​

Stags​

Pullets​

Stags​

Pullets​

Stags​

G​

G​

G​

G​

​

​

​

​

​

​

G​

Y​

G​

Y​

​

​

​

​

​

​

G​

B​

Y​

B​

GB​

GB​

​

​

​

​

G​

W​

Y​

W​

GB​

YW​

​

​

​

​

Y​

G​

B​

Y​

​

​

GY​

GY​

​

​

Y​

Y​

B​

Y​

​

​

GY​

Y​

​

​

Y​

B​

W​

W​

YW​

YW​

BW​

BW​

GYBW​

GYBW​

Y​

W​

W​

W​

YW​

YW​

BW​

​

GYBW​

​

B​

G​

B​

B​

​

​

GB​

GB​

​

​

B​

Y​

B​

W​

​

​

GB​

YW​

​

​

B​

B​

B​

B​

​

​

​

​

GB​

GB​

B​

W​

B​

W​

​

​

​

​

GB​

YW​

W​

G​

W​

W​

​

​

GYBW​

GYBW​

​

​

W​

Y​

W​

W​

​

​

GYBW​

YW​

​

​

W​

B​

W​

W​

​

​

BW​

BW​

GYBW​

GYBW​

W​

W​

W​

W​

​

​

BW​

​

GYBW​

YW​

G = Green Y = Yellow B = Blue W = White By PaulScott

Thanks Prariechiken, Do most folks here understand the genetic codes used above? Some genetics beginners (like myself) may not know that the E in your upper chart is code for black fowl which have black or near black shanks, whereas the lighter colored fowl are indicated by e+ which is, strictly speaking, code for the "wild type" basic body color. (e+ can be grey, red, lemon by another gene). I had omitted reference to the dark fowl in order to omit references to both E & e+. That makes it possible to discuss shank color in terms of only white (W+) or yellow (w) skin and the Inhibits Dermal (Id) gene or lack thereof (id+). (The Reference Chart for Leg Color immediately above also omitts the black fowl)
I suppose everyone here knows the plus sign is actually a superscript to indicate the "wild type" regardless of the gene in question while the dominant gene is capitalized. So a Red Jungle Fowl would be coded for these three genes as e+, W+, id+ (see Prariechiken's upper chart for blue shanks).

 

[JShubin]

My hens were angry this weekend. I brought home a new hen last weekend and just released her into the rest of the flock this weekend. So they all had to reestablish the pecking order.

New Hen



Blue Leg Beauty... (recessive wheaton hen I posted a while back) She needs a name!!!!


Another Mad hen