Show Off Your Games!

[Regular Guy]

A lot of chickens look alike (unashamedly plagiarized and not my chickens)



Mel Sims Black


This is another Sim's stag, but i like the first one better lol... (joking)



Black McRae


I found this by typing 'Mel Sims Black comparison' into google images and then clicking on the link.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

Well if one article I read is correct Line-breeding/In-breeding has resulted in a loss of bio-diversity in a large % of chickens... I think it was like a 90% decrease in bio-diversity. Of course I do take that article with a grain of salt, as I have not followed up on the sources... I think it was mainly focussed on Utility breeds, but still I can see how it could happen to any breed or groups of breeds.

 

[JShubin]

I may just be dog tired, I did have a long hard day, but if you crossed Fabio on hens aquired outside and made 4/8ths (1/2) Fabios, how did you get to 7/8ths?

Yeah I didn't explain well... Fallow was the results of Fabio's Grandson (3/4** Fabio) bred over Fabio's Daughter (1/2 Fabio). So that actually makes him 5/8ths I think.

**but his Grandson was probably a little more than 3/4 Fabio because his father (Black Snow) was the offspring of Fabio's half sister. which puts the % a little higher.

I failed chicken math... I should make breeding diagrams to help me with specific things like this.

 

[JShubin]

Its official Im making a breeding diagram right now... I'll post a rough draft soon.

 

[JShubin]

This is a preliminary draft of the breeding... I only went down the line to Fallow and his sisters right now. I have many other lines that are not yet diagrammed... including my Grey line, Black line and my Golden hens with their offspring. All those lines are also related... Which will probably require me to create a separate page or something...

 

[Rocky64]

Sorry to get off the breeding topic, but can gamefowl handle confinement well. If I get some, I will free range as often as I can but with my other flock and troublesome foxes they probably will spend a good portion of time in their cage. I've read many things that contradict each other. Some say they can't handle confinement while others say they can adapt to it. Is it just an individual bird thing or is it a breed thing? Any clarification will be much appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[flypen]

Sorry to get off the breeding topic, but can gamefowl handle confinement well. If I get some, I will free range as often as I can but with my other flock and troublesome foxes they probably will spend a good portion of time in their cage. I've read many things that contradict each other. Some say they can't handle confinement while others say they can adapt to it. Is it just an individual bird thing or is it a breed thing? Any clarification will be much appreciated, thanks in advance.

100% of my gamefowl live in pens

 

[Rocky64]

100% of my gamefowl live in pens

Ok, sounds like I can get some after all, I was debating whether or not I could even have room for them as I figured that they needed a fairly large pen.

 

[Regular Guy]

Well if one article I read is correct Line-breeding/In-breeding has resulted in a loss of bio-diversity in a large % of chickens... I think it was like a 90% decrease in bio-diversity. Of course I do take that article with a grain of salt, as I have not followed up on the sources... I think it was mainly focussed on Utility breeds, but still I can see how it could happen to any breed or groups of breeds.

There is no lack of genetic diversity in chickens, in fact there is A LOT MORE considering every chicken breed and strain and line within every breed in the world originated from two (or possibly three) 'breeds' of jungle fowl. Consider the fact that every breed of everything shaped by man utilized inbreeding/linebreeding. It trips me out when owners of 'pure' breeds say things like, "I would never inbreed/linebreed'. They may not HAVE TO inbreed because someone else did it for them, but they really should become more educated about the endeavor they have undertaken.

First, they don't realize that they wouldn't even have their pure breed to breed if it hadn't been inbred/linebred to begin with, that's how it was created! otherwise, we would have jungle fowl and wolf dog things etc.

Second, people appiont themselves as 'breeders', believing that if they take the result of real breeders work and allow some of THEIR animals to reproduce that that is all it takes to be a breeder and they obviouly don't even have a rudimentary understanding of breeding practices. Now if you want to let some chickens reproduce THAT'S FINE but YOU ARE NOT A BREEDER you are a FEEDER.

Third....you can't just inbreed indescrimenantly. You have to know what to inbreed, why to inbreed, when to outcross, why to outcross, when to infuse etc, and know that the rules are different among species. Although the concept is the same, some of the methods used with breeding chickens...maybe not so good or bad with dogs for example.

Forth...understand why you have to cull. An old saying amognst dog breeders is, 'those who will not drown, must not breed'. Cruel right? Then DON'T BREED! If you are going to breed gamefowl seriously then you must AT LEAST UNDERSTAND WHY we have 'PURE' BREEDS and WHY WE MAKE CROSSES (Hybrids) OF 'PURE' OVER 'PURE' wheather it's full over full or full over half or whatever. You should know WHAT you are doing and WHY and HOW.

I feel like I'm lecturing you Laura Von Smurf, forgive me and trust me I'm not. You know a lot and you're learning a lot I can tell. This is hopefully for the BENEFIT of anyone reading. You don't buy a car and decide you are going to take the engine apart and put it together in alphabetical order according to the first letter of the parts names and tell all the engineers and mechanics that anyone can have an OPINION lol. Instead of basing your 'breeding program' on what you've heard other people say without considering if they have a clue as to what they are talking about and averaging everyones opinion and then setting out to reinvent the wheel....WHY NOT JUST LEARN (LEARN, LEARN, LEARN) HOW IT'S BEEN DONE FOR CENTURIES.

This is basic stuff. It's not my stuff. It's how it's done.

And this is basically the only thing i'm actually directing to you personally Laura Von Smurf. I saw in a prevous post where you were helping someone on how to breed and cull to get back to white skin, I think it was Shubin but can't remember. I'm no gentics guru and thankfully I don't have to be, but it looked like everyting you said made sense to me. I would say though, while it's great to understand gentetics and all that that entails, don't get blindsided by that alone. That's more imporant if you want to know things like, if you mix yellow and green you get blue. If you ever decide you want to breed gamefowl, you can forget ALL of that. And I mean YOU CAN FORGET ALL OF THAT. I don't mean to oversimplify it, a good eye for qaulity, knowing the differnt breeds and strains and what nicks, even a little intuition maybe and So Much More...However the basics are....You need to know how to breed the best to the best and when you get the BESTEST (humor) you start AN INTELLIGENT inbreeding AND/OR linebreeding program and lock in those traits so you can have a hundred just like 'em on your yard and know what to cross those on once they're set as a family.. .Beats the heck out of shooting in the dark. Back to that particular post though, if he had been breeding (yes i'm going to say it) correctly and purposefully then he wouldn't have had the problems to cull to begin with and he wouldn't have to spend years and hundreds of dollars feeding culls and all that work to correct it AND/OR he wouldn't care what color the skin was because eventually it would all become white or yellow or pink or purple, who cares? If you care whatt color their skin is, you probaly have the wrong breed.

I know there are folks reading this who are thinking, "who does this guy think he is?". That's fine, but I'm going to say it anyway. You have every right to 'throw out the baby and keep the bathwater' if you want to, I agree, and there's enough people out there who understand as much that will probably agree it's a great idea to do so.

Thanks in advance for letting me release what's on my mind here on your post and I hope you get something out of this too although most of it is to contribute to the thread and not intended for you personally. I think you are an intellegent person and based our few communications before, I believe you are extremely capable of listening to what I have to say and receiving it as intended without feeling defensive. Also, I am human and I make mistakes (hope this isn't one of them haha) but if I can help anyone, I think that is far more valuable than worrying if they might be thin skinned.

Thanks again Laura Von Smurf

 

[Regular Guy]

Yeah I didn't explain well... Fallow was the results of Fabio's Grandson (3/4** Fabio) bred over Fabio's Daughter (1/2 Fabio). So that actually makes him 5/8ths I think.

**but his Grandson was probably a little more than 3/4 Fabio because his father (Black Snow) was the offspring of Fabio's half sister. which puts the % a little higher.

I failed chicken math... I should make breeding diagrams to help me with specific things like this.

This is a preliminary draft of the breeding... I only went down the line to Fallow and his sisters right now. I have many other lines that are not yet diagrammed... including my Grey line, Black line and my Golden hens with their offspring. All those lines are also related... Which will probably require me to create a separate page or something...

Brother I don't know how else to say this, but I'm going to give you some feedback and remember, the first step in getting better is admitting you have a problem lol. You stated earlier that you are breeding to recreate a chicken whoose name was Fabio. If That is the case, then what you have presented here can only represent a ill planned attempt unless you only wanted to recreate HALF of Fabio because half is the best you can get and your chicken math is wrong too. I made a few notes and even though this diagram is embedded in this post I can hardly see it with my glasses on so don't crucify me if I make a mistake please. Also, recreating a chicken is wierd for me as opposed to setting traits, but here goes...

The other chickens that aren't offspring of Fabio don't count in recreating Fabio. Repeat, they don't count in recreating Fabio. Fionna is 1/2 Fabio and Champ is 1/4 Fabio.

Leiper Hen #2 is half Fabio.

Champ (1/4) = 2/8ths can only lend half his genetics to his offspring so he can only contribute 1/8th Fabio.
x
Leiper Hatch Hen #2 is half = 4/8ths Fabio and she can only contribute 2/8ths sooooo

Fallow is 3/8ths (less than half) Fabio




If Gamer is the son of Fabio x unrelated YL Hatch hen then obviosly he is 1/2 Fabio or 4/8ths not 7/8ths

and that's the best you are ever going to get out of this line up.

If you really wanted to more or less clone Fabio there would have been much better options, but as he has now passed...half is all you're going to get.