show quality speckled sussex ??

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IMO the selection would need to go one step futher. Track the offspring and look for a trend in size. From reading the ALBC thread Schrider made a 1 pound increase in body weightof the buckeyes by 16 weeks, in the males I"m assuming. I would think an overall selection of larger frame and heavier muscling would move the population to increase these features.

I also think managing a very small population is more difficult to make progress.Can be done but it is slower.

See, to me, this would seem a huge step back. If the size is already there and you have a male that has the size, but lacks a little in type that a female could correct or at least balance, I see no reason to keep a small bird for breeding. I know I relate everything back to a Langshan, but if I had a very typey male but he was small, he'd still be a cull. Why? His frame isn't what I need or want in my flock. I need large framed birds if I'm going to continue getting large framed offspring. I could just be prejudiced on it, but there's a fine line that has to be walked when selecting for size. Too big and you'll have too large of birds that may win because of their size, but don't match the standard. Too small and the judge won't even give a look at your birds and, in my opinion, are breeding birds that don't match the "dual-purpose" breeding, even if they are bantams.

All this being said, only choosing the largest birds isn't going to get you anywhere. You'll wind up with big birds that lack proper wing carriage, heads or, my least concern, coloring. It's why I'm culling the males that obviously have the poor wing carriage first. I don't want that in my lines and I just won't deal with "Oh this one has weak wings, so I'll put it with a male with strong wings." No...I just won't have the issue at all and be done with it. Someone else is more than welcome to work with it and clear it up later on, but why choose something that will only cause headaches later on? My biggest worry at this point is the tail angle. They all seem to have nice width of back but the tails are a bit low on all my cockerels. The hens are a bit better, but I feel as though the cockerels need a little more angulation to their tails.

Just some observations and me trying to reason with myself. I suppose I will just have to wait until Shawnee when all will be developed and hopefully I'll have a few pairs to send out into the world.

Have you read the ALBC pages on selection method? It is not adviseable to select for only one trait at a time . . . As I remember communicating with Schrider he said if the bird is smaller but has the right type, use it. He actually didn't say girl or boy . . . Several traits need to be worked on at the same time.

As I have been looking to have chickens provide meat for my table as well as eggs, SS have been a disappointment. THese birds have not been kept up. So I don't see where at this point they can be too big. Maybe some one has a Moby they want to talk about . . . .but I know the stock I have is rather lacking and needs improvment for meat characteristics.

While I am new to chickens and like to hear all ideas, I have been breeding other livestock for a few year . . .
 
I have a great deal of respect for Don. He and I have been good friends for a long time. However, as to selection, I was always taught to work on only one trait at a time. (Always keeping in mind: health and vigor first and foremost above all else).

It's not that you don't keep other traits in mind, but improvement in any strains, in my honest opinion, is best accomplished one trait each season.

For example, with the Cubalayas I work with, I worked on size/weight for several years before I moved on to anything else. Yes, I kept my eye open and tried not to breed in faults, but I focus completely on size/weight until I had everything in my hatches come correctly then I moved on to other issues.

Again, I would say:
1. One trait at a time until it is set in your strain. While paying attention not to set faults.
 
Forgot to add: I actually write down the trait I am selecting for in my breed book. I set up breed pens according to that trait and then I make myself cull according to that one trait (remembering health and vigor first; followed by no faults).
It is very hard to do sometimes, but by doing so I have made excellent progress in each breed I keep.
 
I, too, pick my battles. I do try to focus in on a couple of traits that I want to improve.

The more faults you want to improve at one time, the more chicks you will need to hatch.
Also, the more selective your pairing will have to be. For example,
Pick a fault that the male has, but the females can help with - say comb.
Pick a fault that the female has, but the male can help with - say tail angle.


A fault from each sex.... that the opposite sex can help with...

Now, I am going to pull numbers out of the air...
Hypothetically, the above pairings will produce offspring that are...


25% with bad comb and bad tail
25% with bad comb and Good Tail
25% with Good comb and bad tail
25% with Good Comb and Good tail...


I am using the term "Good" loosely because "Good" would just mean BETTER than the worse case than I started.
This is a BEST CASE scenario as far as percentages go. This is assuming you are not dealing with a sex linked trait or any other genetic tweak that would influence basic probability calculations...Like I said, these are "BEST CASE" percentages.






 
Hi All, The problem with only working with one fault at a time with the SS is you could spend the next 20 year and still not have much improvement in the Breed. Size has been mostly overlooked in the SS forever by the most popular breeders that are selling chicks and eggs. I can remember 25 year ago when you could see a nice big SS at several of the shows.

If we have faults that can be worked on at the same time , what harm can be done by doing so. I grew up in a Gamefowl family and the way we culled and improved the flock was by using a Axe when needed.

There is no way a line of SS can be improved by using a small size female, always use the larger size female, If need be you could get away with using a male a little small if he was correct in other areas, Never use a small female if you are breeding to the SOP.
 
I, too, pick my battles. I do try to focus in on a couple of traits that I want to improve.

The more faults you want to improve at one time, the more chicks you will need to hatch.
Also, the more selective your pairing will have to be. For example,
Pick a fault that the male has, but the females can help with - say comb.
Pick a fault that the female has, but the male can help with - say tail angle.


A fault from each sex.... that the opposite sex can help with...

Now, I am going to pull numbers out of the air...
Hypothetically, the above pairings will produce offspring that are...


25% with bad comb and bad tail
25% with bad comb and Good Tail
25% with Good comb and bad tail
25% with Good Comb and Good tail...


I am using the term "Good" loosely because "Good" would just mean BETTER than the worse case than I started.
This is a BEST CASE scenario as far as percentages go. This is assuming you are not dealing with a sex linked trait or any other genetic tweak that would influence basic probability calculations...Like I said, these are "BEST CASE" percentages.



I also think, mathace, this is considering 100 chicks. So if one hatched only 25 chicks, one would only hope to get 6 with both good traits. Plus, both these traits need the breeder to grow up these chicks a long time to see if the good traits are there. I have read that cocks will develop a better tail if they are quartered separately from each other. That the males who are not top bird will not develop their tails as much when in the same cage with the top bird. Just a thought. I do not have more thn one reference for this so am still a bit skeptical.
Best,
Karen



 
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Hi All, The problem with only working with one fault at a time with the SS is you could spend the next 20 year and still not have much improvement in the Breed. Size has been mostly overlooked in the SS forever by the most popular breeders that are selling chicks and eggs. I can remember 25 year ago when you could see a nice big SS at several of the shows.

If we have faults that can be worked on at the same time , what harm can be done by doing so. I grew up in a Gamefowl family and the way we culled and improved the flock was by using a Axe when needed.

There is no way a line of SS can be improved by using a small size female, always use the larger size female, If need be you could get away with using a male a little small if he was correct in other areas, Never use a small female if you are breeding to the SOP.

Several years back (3 or 4) there was a fellow from around Delaware that would show at the Unifour Show in NC; his SS were near perfect; size was excellent. If I were breeding them I'd get stock from him and kill all the rest.
 
Awesome discussion guys. Very informative and nice to see different views. I tried to get some better photos today. Unfortunately, the one male is too large to open the cage door for and get a full body shot so I gave up that venue. These are them at the show so please forgive my poor quality here.

The male I'm absolutely keeping.
400


Pullets:
1.
400

2.
400

3.
400


All of my females have very large frames. They lack weight right now since most are still growing but all are still well-muscled.
 
Have you read the ALBC pages on selection method?  It is not adviseable to select for only one trait at a time . . . As I remember communicating with Schrider he said if the bird is smaller but has the right type, use it. He actually didn't say girl or boy . . . Several traits need to be worked on at the same time. 

As I have been looking to have chickens provide meat for my table as well as eggs, SS have been a disappointment. THese birds have not been kept up. So I don't see where at this point they can be too big. Maybe some one has a Moby they want to talk about . . . .but I know the stock I have is rather lacking and needs improvment for meat characteristics. 

While I am new to chickens and like to hear all ideas, I have been breeding other livestock for a few year . . . 


Honestly? The ALBC is one of the last places I would look for breeding help/guidelines. They gathered their knowledge from someone else and little of it was from personal experience with each breed. I prefer to talk to try to contact breeders and get knowledge from their experiences and what they have done within their own flocks.

Using the ALBC site as a way isn't exactly wrong, it's just I prefer a different method of getting information and ideas as to how to better the breed.
 

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