Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[thedragonlady]

There are those working on them. When you hear about European or Dutch red silkies, they are close to RIR colouring. Or at least they were before importation.
http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/10E03A15.pdf second page

And this is a pair (closer to New Hampshire colouring than RIR, though) that were auctioned on BYC about a year ago:


As for buffs carrying blue, I would not say it is either common or not. There are many factors pther than blue that can make a buff lighter in tint. My point was that blue dilutes red pigment SLIGHTLY, not a lot. Lavender, on the other hand dlutes red A LOT.

When I made my buff Silkies 35 years ago, it took me 3 generations to remove the blue underfluff from the initial White x Buff cross.The hardest part in breeding good Buffs, in any breed, is to keep a good depth of buff under color, and lack of light shafting in the feathers, while retaining a pleasing buff top color.

 

[PaintedFeathers]

When I start my "Harlequin" (possible name I came up with) silkie project, I plan on using my silver laced polish roo as the base to put that sort of lacing pattern onto silkies. Should I stick with black or could I use blue too? I don't mind if they are black laced or blue laced just as long as the pattern is there. Or would it be best to stick with one color such as black?

 

[ChickNmamma]

There are those working on them. When you hear about European or Dutch red silkies, they are close to RIR colouring. Or at least they were before importation.
http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/10E03A15.pdf second page

And this is a pair (closer to New Hampshire colouring than RIR, though) that were auctioned on BYC about a year ago:


As for buffs carrying blue, I would not say it is either common or not. There are many factors pther than blue that can make a buff lighter in tint. My point was that blue dilutes red pigment SLIGHTLY, not a lot. Lavender, on the other hand dlutes red A LOT.

Oh no.. those are beautifully colored birds.. another bird color to drool over.. aaaaaaah!

Yes, I understand about the Blue. My note was "may" carry Blue. Of course it could be carrying different modifiers of red/Mahogany (Dl, Ig or Cb to choose from) or have lost the Mahogany necessary for the buff color too (which is called "Gold" but looks very similar to Buff on the calculator). I just played with what Lavender does to red/Mahogany. I noticed that when I changed the Dilution from Di to lav/lav the color stayed buff over the Mahogany - but I am sure it looks different on an actual bird... maybe another cause of lighter/darker birds.. so many different genotypes to make a similar looking phenotypes (yes, I am reading it)....

When I made my buff Silkies 35 years ago, it took me 3 generations to remove the blue underfluff from the initial White x Buff cross.The hardest part in breeding good Buffs, in any breed, is to keep a good depth of buff under color, and lack of light shafting in the feathers, while retaining a pleasing buff top color.

Do you suspect that the blue/gray underfluff that originally showed up in your Buffs came from an e^b (asaitic partridge) base (perhaps hidden under the white rooster) instead of the creamy colored E^Wh (wheaten) base? ... just trying to get pieces of the puzzle together in my head.

I do understand that understanding the genetics behind the feather coloring/patterning on the bird is only the starting point. Actually breeding the birds will show you what they really carry and selectively breeding them for what you want is how you get to your goal. The calculator I am playing with cannot possibly show all the slight changes in color or type made by going from one base or one modifier to another. It is easy on the calculator to take out one modifier and put another in. It is not possible to do that on the birds.. I find the genetics fascinating and I love to know how a + b = Z and why it does...

 

[peepblessed]

As long as we are on genetics. Here's my latest situation. I've been using my self-blue roo over my black hen to make splits to improve the lavs. I decided to put my black roo with my self-blue hen and make a few split there also. The chicks were all partridge. Well, not a huge surprise (just a big surprise) since black often hides partridge, tho this guy has zero leakage. Self-blue can also carry partridge. My question is will I hurt the self-blue by using the lav/partridge in my self-blue pen?

 

[thedragonlady]

Oh no.. those are beautifully colored birds.. another bird color to drool over.. aaaaaaah!

Yes, I understand about the Blue. My note was "may" carry Blue. Of course it could be carrying different modifiers of red/Mahogany (Dl, Ig or Cb to choose from) or have lost the Mahogany necessary for the buff color too (which is called "Gold" but looks very similar to Buff on the calculator). I just played with what Lavender does to red/Mahogany. I noticed that when I changed the Dilution from Di to lav/lav the color stayed buff over the Mahogany - but I am sure it looks different on an actual bird... maybe another cause of lighter/darker birds.. so many different genotypes to make a similar looking phenotypes (yes, I am reading it)....
Do you suspect that the blue/gray underfluff that originally showed up in your Buffs came from an e^b (asaitic partridge) base (perhaps hidden under the white rooster) instead of the creamy colored E^Wh (wheaten) base? ... just trying to get pieces of the puzzle together in my head.

I do understand that understanding the genetics behind the feather coloring/patterning on the bird is only the starting point. Actually breeding the birds will show you what they really carry and selectively breeding them for what you want is how you get to your goal. The calculator I am playing with cannot possibly show all the slight changes in color or type made by going from one base or one modifier to another. It is easy on the calculator to take out one modifier and put another in. It is not possible to do that on the birds.. I find the genetics fascinating and I love to know how a + b = Z and why it does...

No, I think the blue may have come from the buff female cochin x heaven knows what, cross I used. The Cock bird was bred to all my other colors. He was NOT a pure silver white, as he showed creamy feathers in his hackle. Bob Cook gave him to me to use to make the buffs, and he was from a long line of Bob's whites. He threw excellent whites, greys, and blacks for me too.

I have seen a few Buff Orpington chicks that had traces of blue underfluff that later molted out. These were hatchery birds who ended up with pepper in their tails too. No telling what was in the stew pot there !

 

[peepblessed]

No, I think the blue may have come from the buff female cochin x heaven knows what, cross I used. The Cock bird was bred to all my other colors. He was NOT a pure silver white, as he showed creamy feathers in his hackle. Bob Cook gave him to me to use to make the buffs, and he was from a long line of Bob's whites. He threw excellent whites, greys, and blacks for me too.

I have seen a few Buff Orpington chicks that had traces of blue underfluff that later molted out. These were hatchery birds who ended up with pepper in their tails too. No telling what was in the stew pot there !

Hi, Dragonlady! I have a beautiful white chick that came as a big surprise from my blue, black pair. It was born light blue but is now very white (5 weeks). I don't have any white and wondering if there is a place I can use it if it turns out to be breed worthy. It's a beautiful chick. I know you have use white in unique ways so thought I'd get your feed back.

 

[ChickNmamma]

When I start my "Harlequin" (possible name I came up with) silkie project, I plan on using my silver laced polish roo as the base to put that sort of lacing pattern onto silkies. Should I stick with black or could I use blue too? I don't mind if they are black laced or blue laced just as long as the pattern is there. Or would it be best to stick with one color such as black?

Wow, no clue. Might be easier to see the lacing with black?

As long as we are on genetics. Here's my latest situation. I've been using my self-blue roo over my black hen to make splits to improve the lavs. I decided to put my black roo with my self-blue hen and make a few split there also. The chicks were all partridge. Well, not a huge surprise (just a big surprise) since black often hides partridge, tho this guy has zero leakage. Self-blue can also carry partridge. My question is will I hurt the self-blue by using the lav/partridge in my self-blue pen?

Awaiting answers to both these questions.. very very interesting...

All partridge chicks - WHAT is under that black? .. How many chicks hatched? I can't get statistics to give me all partridge from any Black x Self Blue crossings no matter what I hide in there - only 1/4 would be partridge ...

Now going to go check what two copies of lav does to Partridge.. hmmm.... Ooooooo- Those are beautiful! Isabella colored partridge! WOW..um.. is that the ones that are being called Porcelain or Self Blue Creme? Oooh, they are pretty!

Sounds like you already have Partridge under your Lavender hen... Not sure how it would hurt the Self Blues? Only concern is you might get Porcelain/Blue Creme and Partridge instead of Self Blue in future generations because you would only have the one E-based aliee to share among the children - giving you only 25% chance of Black/Self Blue?

 

[peepblessed]

Wow, no clue. Might be easier to see the lacing with black?

Awaiting answers to both these questions.. very very interesting...

All partridge chicks - WHAT is under that black? .. How many chicks hatched? I can't get statistics to give me all partridge from any Black x Self Blue crossings no matter what I hide in there - only 1/4 would be partridge ...

Now going to go check what two copies of lav does to Partridge.. hmmm.... Ooooooo- Those are beautiful! Isabella colored partridge! WOW..um.. is that the ones that are being called Porcelain or Self Blue Creme? Oooh, they are pretty!

Sounds like you already have Partridge under your Lavender hen... Not sure how it would hurt the Self Blues? Only concern is you might get Porcelain/Blue Creme and Partridge instead of Self Blue in future generations because you would only have the one E-based aliee to share among the children - giving you only 25% chance of Black/Self Blue?

Three chicks all partridge. Of course they could still turn black.!

 

[ChickNmamma]

No, I think the blue may have come from the buff female cochin x heaven knows what, cross I used. The Cock bird was bred to all my other colors. He was NOT a pure silver white, as he showed creamy feathers in his hackle. Bob Cook gave him to me to use to make the buffs, and he was from a long line of Bob's whites. He threw excellent whites, greys, and blacks for me too.

I have seen a few Buff Orpington chicks that had traces of blue underfluff that later molted out. These were hatchery birds who ended up with pepper in their tails too. No telling what was in the stew pot there !

Ah, hiding under unknown female Buff.

I am going back to read your information about when you bred your first buffs. I wonder if the rooster was Golden - you got both Greys and Buffs in the first generation!

Yes.. hatchery birds have a lot in their "pots". And they do not breed out anything - so whatever is thrown in, stays in and gets really mixed - until somebody does a lot of work to breed it out.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote:
Yes, I have heard of that. Chicks hatching out partridge and then "turning" black or blue as they grew up. Maybe that's what you have - a "turned" black or a "turned" Self Blue hen.... or both! Would have to learn a whole lot more before I could figure out HOW that happens.. what melanisers appear only in the adult feathers and are not apparent in the chick down.. who does that... and if it would be something you would not want to keep (because of leakage possibilities as they age)... More research necessary...