Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[Me & Jack]

Janine-- I have a much younger bird to show you. I really, really like how she is filling in, even though she's young. I know Sonoran has said that wings can change drastically as they age... is it too young to say anything about them, or time to start looking for faults??

Right side

oops-- I took another right side. Oh well... Sigh. (same bird as above)

I think this bird has much better wing carriage and I completely agree with Suze that it would definitely be worth it to give it time to fill out. Not as compact type as your other bird, and not as full a tail -- but those things can and do develop more. Give it another 2-3 months and you should have a much better idea of whether it will be worth breeding/showing. The wing itself may strengthen and be carried tighter, and the saddle feathers might fill out and hide the secondary feather tips, which is desirable. Hope this has been helpful. Let me know if you want any more input. And definitely get others' opinions for a more rounded perspective.

 

[Hawkeye95]

Awww! So cute!! What a shame she has that wing thing going on!!

I know!! It's so sickening. It makes me so sad, because she is so pretty.

Definitely a slipped wing going on here. And the twisted feathers in the secondaries would certainly make it a weak wing on top of that. This is not a bird I would breed for that reason, even though she has nice type and a nice tail/cushion! What a shame. I suppose if you wanted to try breeding her to a boy with awesome wings and see what she produces...but, it's a big risk.

I'm going to hang on to her, but I just don't know if I want to risk it or not. I'll see how she continues to develop. I was even thinking she may have a wry tail, but some days I don't see it at all, and others I see a hint of it. I'm just going to throw her to one side as a maybe or a trial run... but I hate to breed bad birds. Likely she's just going to be a pet.

I think this bird has much better wing carriage and I completely agree with Suze that it would definitely be worth it to give it time to fill out. Not as compact type as your other bird, and not as full a tail -- but those things can and do develop more. Give it another 2-3 months and you should have a much better idea of whether it will be worth breeding/showing. The wing itself may strengthen and be carried tighter, and the saddle feathers might fill out and hide the secondary feather tips, which is desirable. Hope this has been helpful. Let me know if you want any more input. And definitely get others' opinions for a more rounded perspective.

Thanks, Janine. I'm soooo glad you are here! This is exactly what Peep and I have been wanting-- someone much more experienced than ourselves to keep us learning and not floundering! I really appreciate the critique and by all means, be very honest, if I'm missing flaws or overlooking something, I absolutely want it brought to my attention. This younger chick I just showed you is about 3 months.

I have another question for you! I have another chick, who is about 3 months and she is also starting to develop pretty good type. Her wings are better than either of these two. BUT-- she has one excellent foot and the other, a fused toe--but it's a badly fused 4th and 5th. I can take a picture of her feet tomorrow to show you. Thoughts on that? Do you cull all toes even if they turn out with really good type.. or just breed them to a bird that has perfect toes?? See, I really need breeding advice.

 

[Me & Jack]

I know!! It's so sickening. It makes me so sad, because she is so pretty.

I'm going to hang on to her, but I just don't know if I want to risk it or not. I'll see how she continues to develop. I was even thinking she may have a wry tail, but some days I don't see it at all, and others I see a hint of it. I'm just going to throw her to one side as a maybe or a trial run... but I hate to breed bad birds. Likely she's just going to be a pet.

Thanks, Janine. I'm soooo glad you are here! This is exactly what Peep and I have been wanting-- someone much more experienced than ourselves to keep us learning and not floundering! I really appreciate the critique and by all means, be very honest, if I'm missing flaws or overlooking something, I absolutely want it brought to my attention. This younger chick I just showed you is about 3 months.

I have another question for you! I have another chick, who is about 3 months and she is also starting to develop pretty good type. Her wings are better than either of these two. BUT-- she has one excellent foot and the other, a fused toe--but it's a badly fused 4th and 5th. I can take a picture of her feet tomorrow to show you. Thoughts on that? Do you cull all toes even if they turn out with really good type.. or just breed them to a bird that has perfect toes?? See, I really need breeding advice.

A fused hallux (hallux is the name of the normal inside toe...normal for all breeds of chicken, and technically it is called the 1st toe, but a lot of silkie people call it the 4th toe--confused yet?) is disconcerting and it's one expression of the polydactyly gene (Po) for 5-toed breeds. I have a current working theory that sometimes what we are seeing in some silkies is a "four-toed" bird with an extra frontal toe next to or fused to the hallux without it being a proper 5th toe, which should be longer, kick backwards and upwards. Toes are easy to breed out but you've got to have something really much better to breed them to. Find a bird with outstanding toes and placement and breed from there. Just breeding a fused to a non-fused is not necessarily going to get you far very quickly. You need much better toes to breed to. So, toes are just toes...they don't rank anywhere near in importance to type. If I had an outstanding four-toed bird with amazing type I'd breed it for sure, even though it would be DQ'd in the show ring for the lack of the fifth toes. But that's okay b/c you'll just breed and will start to see improvement if you breed to another bird with excellent toes.

You certainly want to breed with the best birds you can get your hands on, but even those birds won't be perfect and some of their offspring will have faults and DQs of their own. Breeders I know who have been working for 5, 8, 12, 20 years still cull for certain reasons but those reasons get fewer and farther between. So, what I mean to say is, you have to start somewhere. If these are the best birds you can have for now then you start working on them to try to improve upon them--a very respectable thing to do. Don't expect to have show-winning birds by spring unless you lucked into obtaining someone's outstanding flock and the hard work they put into it. Instead, aim to have even just one of your birds place, even if it's last, and to have more of your birds place the next show. And keep breeding a bird weak in an area, wings, say, to better and better birds as you acquire them.

I can't stress enough how important type is: toes, fairly easy to fix over a few generations if you have the time and a better bird or two. Wings, a lot harder, in my opinion, but keep working, keep culling and keep only 2 or 3 of the best birds and breed them together or to an even better bird. Work with a small flock of 4-6 birds and it becomes much easier to see what birds throw what faults and what birds are actually improving things. But breed 20-30 birds and you'll be lost pretty easily. Just too much to track. Think fewer but better birds. And give yourself at least two years to really start saying things like, "Wow, her grandfather had weak wings but I bred him to a better hen, and then I bred the offspring to an even better roo, and now look what I have accomplished!" It's a great feeling.

 

[Panther Creek Poultry]

Well just spent this afternoon and evening reading all this thread. I have learned so much. Thanks for all the imput and never doubt that answering questions always helps new breeders.

 

[Hawkeye95]

A fused hallux (hallux is the name of the normal inside toe...normal for all breeds of chicken, and technically it is called the 1st toe, but a lot of silkie people call it the 4th toe--confused yet?) is disconcerting and it's one expression of the polydactyly gene (Po) for 5-toed breeds. I have a current working theory that sometimes what we are seeing in some silkies is a "four-toed" bird with an extra frontal toe next to or fused to the hallux without it being a proper 5th toe, which should be longer, kick backwards and upwards. Toes are easy to breed out but you've got to have something really much better to breed them to. Find a bird with outstanding toes and placement and breed from there. Just breeding a fused to a non-fused is not necessarily going to get you far very quickly. You need much better toes to breed to. So, toes are just toes...they don't rank anywhere near in importance to type. If I had an outstanding four-toed bird with amazing type I'd breed it for sure, even though it would be DQ'd in the show ring for the lack of the fifth toes. But that's okay b/c you'll just breed and will start to see improvement if you breed to another bird with excellent toes.

You certainly want to breed with the best birds you can get your hands on, but even those birds won't be perfect and some of their offspring will have faults and DQs of their own. Breeders I know who have been working for 5, 8, 12, 20 years still cull for certain reasons but those reasons get fewer and farther between. So, what I mean to say is, you have to start somewhere. If these are the best birds you can have for now then you start working on them to try to improve upon them--a very respectable thing to do. Don't expect to have show-winning birds by spring unless you lucked into obtaining someone's outstanding flock and the hard work they put into it. Instead, aim to have even just one of your birds place, even if it's last, and to have more of your birds place the next show. And keep breeding a bird weak in an area, wings, say, to better and better birds as you acquire them.

I can't stress enough how important type is: toes, fairly easy to fix over a few generations if you have the time and a better bird or two. Wings, a lot harder, in my opinion, but keep working, keep culling and keep only 2 or 3 of the best birds and breed them together or to an even better bird. Work with a small flock of 4-6 birds and it becomes much easier to see what birds throw what faults and what birds are actually improving things. But breed 20-30 birds and you'll be lost pretty easily. Just too much to track. Think fewer but better birds. And give yourself at least two years to really start saying things like, "Wow, her grandfather had weak wings but I bred him to a better hen, and then I bred the offspring to an even better roo, and now look what I have accomplished!" It's a great feeling.

Thank you so much for all that info! Yeah, I hatched out quite a few chicks this Spring and I need to get down to just a few. So I think I will look for type over anything else at this point. The majority of them have (I think) excellent toes. But this one I really like doesn't. I don't think I have instant show worthy birds, but we're still showing them to gain the experience and run into more silkie breeders and talk to them! But definitely smart to narrow down to 4-6 birds. How many roosters do you keep? I'm thinking of keeping a couple, or do I just need one really good one. I'm worried about my roosters because I just discovered at our last show that my rooster was too heavy. The judge informed us of this. Soooo... these are all of his chicks. Great, hu? Sigh. So I'm hoping that maybe we'll get some roos that will be okay. And I also hatched eggs from another breeder and so far, none of them are looking like boys, and I was really hoping for a boy out of them. Oh-- those eggs, that is where the toe fault came from. MY birds that I bred with myself have no toe faults.
Here's an example of the toes I've been consistently getting on my chicks over and over again, and this goes on and on for many chicks-- not a ONE of them with fused or messed up toes:

THEN... my shipped eggs. Several of these birds seem to look like they might be getting better type than my birds. But a few of them have fused toes or extra toes. These are also smaller birds than mine. So I was hoping one would be a rooster and I could size mine down a bit and not have another heavy rooster or offspring. But this line doesn't have all the consistency of great toes like my birds. But they may have better type--have to wait and see how they grow out. Right now, I can't be sure, because they are all still pretty young. About 3 months-- most of my birds are about that age, over or under by just a couple weeks or so.

Here is a shipped egg toe-- they are all long and lanky toes:

I'll go out and get a picture of the bird I really like here in a while so you can see how bad it is. Should I just stay away from it since my birds are breeding consistently with good toes?? Or do I dare try it to get the better type with a messed up toe?

 

[peepblessed]

A fused hallux (hallux is the name of the normal inside toe...normal for all breeds of chicken, and technically it is called the 1st toe, but a lot of silkie people call it the 4th toe--confused yet?) is disconcerting and it's one expression of the polydactyly gene (Po) for 5-toed breeds. I have a current working theory that sometimes what we are seeing in some silkies is a "four-toed" bird with an extra frontal toe next to or fused to the hallux without it being a proper 5th toe, which should be longer, kick backwards and upwards. Toes are easy to breed out but you've got to have something really much better to breed them to. Find a bird with outstanding toes and placement and breed from there. Just breeding a fused to a non-fused is not necessarily going to get you far very quickly. You need much better toes to breed to. So, toes are just toes...they don't rank anywhere near in importance to type. If I had an outstanding four-toed bird with amazing type I'd breed it for sure, even though it would be DQ'd in the show ring for the lack of the fifth toes. But that's okay b/c you'll just breed and will start to see improvement if you breed to another bird with excellent toes.

You certainly want to breed with the best birds you can get your hands on, but even those birds won't be perfect and some of their offspring will have faults and DQs of their own. Breeders I know who have been working for 5, 8, 12, 20 years still cull for certain reasons but those reasons get fewer and farther between. So, what I mean to say is, you have to start somewhere. If these are the best birds you can have for now then you start working on them to try to improve upon them--a very respectable thing to do. Don't expect to have show-winning birds by spring unless you lucked into obtaining someone's outstanding flock and the hard work they put into it. Instead, aim to have even just one of your birds place, even if it's last, and to have more of your birds place the next show. And keep breeding a bird weak in an area, wings, say, to better and better birds as you acquire them.

I can't stress enough how important type is: toes, fairly easy to fix over a few generations if you have the time and a better bird or two. Wings, a lot harder, in my opinion, but keep working, keep culling and keep only 2 or 3 of the best birds and breed them together or to an even better bird. Work with a small flock of 4-6 birds and it becomes much easier to see what birds throw what faults and what birds are actually improving things. But breed 20-30 birds and you'll be lost pretty easily. Just too much to track. Think fewer but better birds. And give yourself at least two years to really start saying things like, "Wow, her grandfather had weak wings but I bred him to a better hen, and then I bred the offspring to an even better roo, and now look what I have accomplished!" It's a great feeling.

Such great advice! Thank you!!

 

[PNWGirl]

I am SO glad that this thread was started and I really hope that other, experienced, breeders will jump in with their thoughts and photo's. I am a very visual person and the photo's help me tremedously.

I am a novice, in the world of showing poultry (but 33 years of showing dogs), and will be going to my first show in October. What has been discussed, so far, will help me with evaluating my birds.

Thanks, again, for starting this and I hope that this thread flourishes so I can learn more!

Sheila

 

[Me & Jack]

Thank you so much for all that info! Yeah, I hatched out quite a few chicks this Spring and I need to get down to just a few. So I think I will look for type over anything else at this point. The majority of them have (I think) excellent toes. But this one I really like doesn't. I don't think I have instant show worthy birds, but we're still showing them to gain the experience and run into more silkie breeders and talk to them! But definitely smart to narrow down to 4-6 birds. How many roosters do you keep? I'm thinking of keeping a couple, or do I just need one really good one. I'm worried about my roosters because I just discovered at our last show that my rooster was too heavy. The judge informed us of this. Soooo... these are all of his chicks. Great, hu? Sigh. So I'm hoping that maybe we'll get some roos that will be okay. And I also hatched eggs from another breeder and so far, none of them are looking like boys, and I was really hoping for a boy out of them. Oh-- those eggs, that is where the toe fault came from. MY birds that I bred with myself have no toe faults.
Here's an example of the toes I've been consistently getting on my chicks over and over again, and this goes on and on for many chicks-- not a ONE of them with fused or messed up toes:

THEN... my shipped eggs. Several of these birds seem to look like they might be getting better type than my birds. But a few of them have fused toes or extra toes. These are also smaller birds than mine. So I was hoping one would be a rooster and I could size mine down a bit and not have another heavy rooster or offspring. But this line doesn't have all the consistency of great toes like my birds. But they may have better type--have to wait and see how they grow out. Right now, I can't be sure, because they are all still pretty young. About 3 months-- most of my birds are about that age, over or under by just a couple weeks or so.

Here is a shipped egg toe-- they are all long and lanky toes:

I'll go out and get a picture of the bird I really like here in a while so you can see how bad it is. Should I just stay away from it since my birds are breeding consistently with good toes?? Or do I dare try it to get the better type with a messed up toe?

Yes, those toes are looking pretty good, although the feathering on the middle toes looks weaker than you want it to be. Is that a result of them being outside? Keeping birds on dirt can wreak havoc on foot feathering.

Remember -- type is most important, and toes can be improved upon within a generation or two. If the bird with poor toes truly has great type then use that bird, for sure, and breed to your birds with better toes. Take the very best offspring and keep going. Most judges only give a cursory glance at toes to make sure there are 5 of them and that the middle toe is feathered. If you worry too much about toes you might lose your focus for type. Someone once said that you have to build the house before you can worry about furnishing each room. Same with Silkies--get that type going and then you can focus on improving each individual trait. Sometimes you luck out and manage to improve two or three things at the same time. I love it when that happens! LOL

 

[aoxa]

THEN... my shipped eggs.  Several of these birds seem to look like they might be getting better type than my birds.  But a few of them have fused toes or extra toes.  These are also smaller birds than mine.  So I was hoping one would be a rooster and I could size mine down a bit and not have another heavy rooster or offspring.  But this line doesn't have all the consistency of great toes like my birds.  But they may have better type--have to wait and see how they grow out.  Right now, I can't be sure, because they are all still pretty young.  About 3 months-- most of my birds are about that age, over or under by just a couple weeks or so.  

Here is a shipped egg toe-- they are all long and lanky toes:

I'll go out and get a picture of the bird I really like here in a while so you can see how bad it is.  Should I just stay away from it since my birds are breeding consistently with good toes??  Or do I dare try it to get the better type with a messed up toe?

Just a comment on the extra toes - the judges didn't even notice when one of my birds had it. Jamie said to keep showing and see how long it goes unnoticed lol.



Oh and he said that if she throws offspring with extra toes, get rid of her. But she may not. I guess toes are much easier to fix then some other faults.

 

[PNWGirl]

Okay, how would you handle this:
A local breeder advertised show birds. You have corresponded with her and asked for photo's of the Roo & Hen. When viewing you see that the Roo's feathers are flat with hardly any crown so ask how old he is and find that he is 2.5 years old. At this point, while their line is a well known show breeder, you know that these were the show breedersr culls (which were bred with pet birds). How do you tell the breeder that you will not be purchasing any chicks? Anything that I can think of would likely hurt/offend and I do not want to do that but I also do not wish to purchase, clearly, pet birds.
Thanks!

Sheila