Single comb chick from two rose comb birds? **More questions, page 3**

[WallTenters]

I was recently told to keep single comb birds in our RC flock, and use them every so often to keep vigor up. We got these single comb birds from two sources.
1) our source birds had a different breed mixed in = bad bad
2) our breed (Dominiques) used to come in both SC and RC, so there are still SC genetics in the old lines = good good

It's not that huge of a deal, as long as it's not super common.

 

[Mrs. Turbo]

Quote:
this old thread has some great information on it. There is a reason why so many single comb chicks are coming out of the Wyandottes. There are wyandotte breeders crossing rocks on their birds....the rocks have a single comb. These wyandotte/rock crosses are mixing into everyones wyandotte flocks whether you know it or not. This is the reason the long time wyandotte breeders with closed flocks do not have the single comb issue. We crossed one of these birds into our line of BLRWs and have been working very hard to eliminate the very unwanted trait that was passed on.
I am sure there are people that do not aggree with this, but the truth is.....we do not hatch any single comb chicks from our partridge bantam/large fowl, black bantam/largefowl, blue wyandottes....fertility is very high on these birds. We do hatch about 5% from our SLWs but the number is getting better every year. There is a line of SLWs known for a large number of single comb....not sure what was crossed on them.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
But the, "Single Comb" is/ was nothing like the American Dominique we have and show today.
Even the American Standard of Perfection states that there were at least 2 different Dominique breeds. Under Plymouth Rocks it states.

American Standard of Perfection

2001 :

"The Dominique male used was not the American or Rose comb Dominique male which became a Standard breed in 1847, but a single combed, hawked-colored fowl commonly found in that location."

In fact with Gamefowl the term Dominique or Dom is still used to describe a group of patterns/ colors that can range from cuckoo and crele to a white fowl with little to no barring.

Chris​

 

[Gypsy07]

Here's a link I found about low fertility in rose combed breeds:

http://www.rosecomb.com/federation/articles/infertility.html

 

[WallTenters]

I agree Chris, and I was told to be careful about having more than a handful out of every hundred or so chicks w/ SC - that any more than that was just too many. However, it seems to help many Dom flocks keep fertility and production up, as that can become a concern a few generations in.

But I have seen a few SC Doms that were otherwise good in type. Someone that breeds another rose comb breed told my breeding partner that often a SC hen with a RC roo will keep the RC from being too flat, as well. I'm not sure if this will work out in Doms, but it might help keep away from hollow combs. Just something we'll have to learn as we go.

Again, the SC birds should only be used sparingly and only if they have good type, egg laying, width and everything else that makes them a Dom.

 

[WyandotteTX]

Walltenters, go look at the Wyandotte thread and there were some pictures of some Partridge Wyandottes bred from Single comb and Rose comb. They were comparison pictures, the rose comb from a single comb was very flat. The true rose comb was much larger. Was a good comparison of the differences in true rose combs and those bred from single comb crosses.
Most experienced rose comb variety breeders will tell you not to cross single combs into your birds because they only produce MORE single comb birds. If the variety you raise calls for rose combs, it make sense to breed to that character trait.
This debate keeps coming up over and over again. We seem to be standing on either side of the tracks throwing rocks at each other trying to convince the other person that WE are right. Some breeders believe they should keep single combs for fertilitys sake. Others believe flocks should not be tainted with a disqualification and state that fertility is not affected.
Ive been doing some research and reading alot about Single and Rose Comb Minorcas and not once in all of the pages that I have read is there a mention of decreased fertility in the RC varieties.
Choose your side as you believe. I am not going to try and convince anyone else of what I know from experience to be the case.

 

[Gypsy07]

Wow, this dicussion kept on going and I didn't even notice. My birds aren't Wyandottes, so I can't comment on anything said about that breed, but it was all very interesting anyway. Thanks for taking such an interest in my thread.

Okay, so I've just hatched out another single comb bird. There is NO WAY any of this batch of eggs were from a Leghorn, so I guess I do have two parents each with a recessive gene for single comb. Problem now is, I don't know which rooster is the daddy! I may have two roos with the recessive gene, or I may have just one. More test matings, I guess. Heh heh. ANY excuse to hatch out some more chicks is cool by me!

So I have a few more questions now...

1. Hypothetically test mating a rose comb bird to a single comb bird to check if it's pure: If it's not pure, I will get 50% rose comb and 50% single comb chicks, is that right? And none of the rose comb chicks would be pure. They would all be dominant for rose comb and recessive for single comb, yeah? And if then bred back to a pure rose combed bird would produce 25% pure rose combed chicks? So it would be worth keeping the rose comb birds from these test matings to use for future breeding with pure rose combed birds, if everything else about them is good?

2. Hypothetically mating two rose combed birds, one pure and one with the recessive single comb gene: ALL of the chicks would have a rose comb, right? 50% of them would be pure rose comb and 50% of them would still have the recessive gene, right?

PLEASE tell me I'm getting the hang of this!!!

 

[WallTenters]

Quote:
ack.. editing because I read it wrong!

1. Yes. That's right. Keep in mind that mother nature invented her math well before ours - lol... you might have 100% of the single comb embryos develop and only 5% of the rose comb ones, so you'd end up with a ton of SC chicks.. You would want to do a hatch of at least 50 or so to really get an idea of where you're at, 100's would be better, but even just doing some small hatches will give you some idea.

And if then bred back to a pure rose combed bird would produce 25% pure rose combed chicks?
...
Actually, 50% would be pure rose comb.

2. Yep !

 

[WallTenters]

Quote:

I didn't know it was such a heated debate. I'm guessing that Wyandotte breeders are more "into" this than Dominique breeders, or at least those that I've talked to about it. Hmmm food for thought

 

[Gypsy07]

Thank you very much for the confirmations and the correction WallTenters. I'm getting the hang of it at last! I've got a much better idea of what I should be doing now. Just needed someone to confirm my calculations. I can see I'll need to keep very careful records of who's been mated with whom, and whose chicks are whose. I've just hatched out another four chicks and got one more single comb. Oh well. I can see I'll have to plan ahead and make sure I can find a nice home as garden pets for all my future culls. I don't think I could ever bring myself to destroy loads of chicks just for having the wrong comb...

I see how the test matings could be troublesome. That way you can't prove a theory, you can only assume it to be correct until it is disproved? When mating a pure rose comb bird to one who you suspect has the recessive gene, you could hatch 50 rose combed chicks and still not be 100% certain that the suspect WAS pure for rose comb. You could hatch 100, or more, and still have a small doubt that it was just luck, and the recessive gene was still lurking in there anyway.

But if you only hatched out one bird and it was single comb then you'd know for sure.

BTW, the bird in your avatar is gorgeous!