Small flock spiral/clan mating logistics?

[Hermits Garden]

I've read that spiral or clan mating is the way to avoid bringing in new birds with a goal of improving one breed.

I've also read that you can't keep one rooster with only three birds without him wearing them out.

And I've ALSO read that you shouldn't keep roosters in a bachelor pen where they can see the hens, or put them in and out, because it messes with their established hiarchy.

I only have room for four pens/runs, and no more. They're all in parallel, with one long divided coop, and runs extending out from each. Each pen in the coop is 25 sq ft, and each run per coop is 80 sq ft.

My goal is only to have a sustainable, closed flock of one breed. If I kept three trios divided into three clans and used the fourth pen/run for growing out and culling, is this enough room? Is the rooster to hen ratio wrong? My intended breed is not broody, so I'll control hatching.

But if this plan is unfeasible, I'd just as soon throw them all together and hope for the best. I know I'll have set backs every time I bring in new blood, and that's what I'm trying to avoid. But I don't want bald hens, either.

Please advise?

 

[NatJ]

I've also read that you can't keep one rooster with only three birds without him wearing them out.

And I've ALSO read that you shouldn't keep roosters in a bachelor pen where they can see the hens, or put them in and out, because it messes with their established hiarchy.

Both of those have a lot to do with the individual chickens.

Plenty of serious breeders keep one rooster with only a few hens--sometimes it works fine, sometimes the hens start to get bare backs so people put cloth "saddles" on them, and sometimes the rooster does need to be moved out for a while to give the hens a break.

The few times I've tried having a pen of just roosters, it was adjacent to the hens (wire mesh divider), and they seemed fine.

For whether the roosters would remember their heirarchy if they went back and forth, it would probably depend on how long they were in what groups.

For example, if the roosters all lived together for 6 days each week and they were put with the appropriate hens for only one day each week, they would not forget their pecking order during that one day. And yes, if a hen mates once a week, she should typically produce fertile eggs.

Or if you put each rooster in with his hens for an hour each morning, then put them all back in the bachelor pen, they would also remember their heirarchy.

 

[Hermits Garden]

Both of those have a lot to do with the individual chickens.... And yes, if a hen mates once a week, she should typically produce fertile eggs. Or if you put each rooster in with his hens for an hour each morning, then put them all back in the bachelor pen, they would also remember their heirarchy.

This is good news. Thank you. I intended to raise all of them together until they hit puberty, and then put the roosters in a bachelor pad til I decided which trios (or quartets) I wanted to group.

 

[NatJ]

I intended to raise all of them together until they hit puberty, and then put the roosters in a bachelor pad til I decided which trios (or quartets) I wanted to group.

If you want to select for roosters that do not mate their hens bald: you could divide the hens among two or three pens and put one male in each one. Watch and see how he does for a week or so, then swap for a different male in each hen-pen and watch him. (Obviously, you would need to do this long enough before you want to collect eggs for hatching, so don't get any chicks sired by the wrong males.)

 

[EggSighted4Life]

And I've ALSO read that you shouldn't keep roosters in a bachelor pen where they can see the hens, or put them in and out, because it messes with their established hiarchy.

Hi there, hope you are enjoying BYC!

As stated by the first poster.. ALL things will depend on the individuals.. what works for some may or may not for others.. so figuring out what YOU think might be best and then switching it up if you need to or as your goals change is always an option.. This hobby never stops learning and growing and changing for me!

My stag pen is kept with an adjacent attached wire fence to the hens.. where everyone can communicate and recognize each other. This is how the boys learn to treat call and flirt some and the ladies sometimes groom their face etc through the wire. My only issue is when a stag is in the hen pen if he wants to focus on fence fighting instead of being with the ladies then he can back in with his buddies immediately. They need to know where their priority lies.. here at MY place.

In order to reduce any pecking order antics.. and it has worked well for me.. I remove my stag after dark from his occupied position and put him with the ladies. After dark that night.. he goes back to the stag pen before they get up the next morning. This seems to not be enough time for them to realize a piece of the order needs to be filled and so life goes on as usual ALWAYS, so far.

Too many days of separation, usually by day two after culling.. new antics have started. To me EVEN if they do remember the previous order and I KNOW the remember the individual.. they may not agree to comply and therefore challenge what was status quo as they MAY be feeling some new confidence or their oats a little.

A strong head cock to run the stag pen is worth his weight in gold.

Using this method, I kept as many different colored egg laying breed hens as I wanted and only swap in the rooster from which breed I wish to collect hatching eggs from.. allowing more breeds to be kept with less need for so many of each to spread the love.

Please note that that selecting a ROOSTER that doesn't over mate his ladies would require them to actually be roosters and not cockerels as the two are entirely different creatures and behavior of one cannot compare to behavior of another when talking hormonal things.. behaviors change sooo much.. and this needs to be accounted and allowed for...

I do currently have 2 cockerels with 4 pullets.. free range and NO over mating... YET.

Best wishes on your wonderful adventure!

 

[Hermits Garden]

If you want to select for roosters that do not mate their hens bald: you could divide the hens among two or three pens and put one male in each one. Watch and see how he does for a week or so, then swap for a different male in each hen-pen and watch him. (Obviously, you would need to do this long enough before you want to collect eggs for hatching, so don't get any chicks sired by the wrong males.)

Thank you. I'd want to wait til the following spring to hatch eggs, regardless. I'll be getting the starter flock spring of 2021, hatching the first offspring spring of 2022.

 

[Hermits Garden]

Hi there, hope you are enjoying BYC!
I am! My brain is sore with so much study going on, but this is a wonderful group.

My stag pen is kept with an adjacent attached wire fence to the hens.. where everyone can communicate and recognize each other. This is how the boys learn to treat call and flirt some and the ladies sometimes groom their face etc through the wire.
This is good to hear--I really don't have a lot of flexibility except that I have a 20'x20' bit of land and a set of coop plans. Kinda reminds me of a boys' school next door to a girls' school, all that flirtin' through the fence.

In order to reduce any pecking order antics.. and it has worked well for me.. I remove my stag after dark from his occupied position and put him with the ladies. After dark that night.. he goes back to the stag pen before they get up the next morning. This seems to not be enough time for them to realize a piece of the order needs to be filled and so life goes on as usual ALWAYS, so far.
This is doable. I work from home, and we have insanely early hours.

Please note that that selecting a ROOSTER that doesn't over mate his ladies would require them to actually be roosters and not cockerels as the two are entirely different creatures and behavior of one cannot compare to behavior of another when talking hormonal things.. behaviors change sooo much.. and this needs to be accounted and allowed for...
I won't be able to free range--our area is rural, but the neighbors have dogs that roam wherever they want--not to mention the woodland wildlife in our mountains. But I do intend to let the chicks "grow up" together, and separate the genders at puberty. Then I'll test them out, once they've calmed down a little, and the hens are laying reliably.
Thank you!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Thank you. I'd want to wait til the following spring to hatch eggs, regardless. I'll be getting the starter flock spring of 2021, hatching the first offspring spring of 2022.

It's great that you're planning ahead! I'm a planner too, it helps me more often than not to be prepared.

Sounds like you're starting out going ALL in on a very challenging yet worthy and super rewarding project.. What breed are you gonna be working with? Is there one you're in love with in person already (or on paper)?

 

[Sally PB]

I have one cockerel with three pullets, all grew up together and are six months old. SO FAR it is working well! I'm aware this could change. I just have to wait and watch.

 

[Hermits Garden]

It's great that you're planning ahead! I'm a planner too, it helps me more often than not to be prepared.

Sounds like you're starting out going ALL in on a very challenging yet worthy and super rewarding project.. What breed are you gonna be working with? Is there one you're in love with in person already (or on paper)?

As to my plans--I don't tend to mess around. I've studied chickens and raising them for five years or more--had to wait til we finally quit moving. This new house we're building will be the 18th move in 26 yrs. So yep, I'm all in.

To be honest, breed selection is the ONLY part of the planning that is not going well. I want a dual purpose breed for meat and eggs that doesn't go insanely broody, has a good temperament, and will be healthy and sturdy. I'm thinking about Black Australorps. And Ameraucanas. And Dorkings. And Brabanters. And Speckled Sussex. See? I want ALL THE CHICKENS!