Small flock spiral/clan mating logistics?

[Hermits Garden]

I've read that spiral or clan mating is the way to avoid bringing in new birds with a goal of improving one breed.

I've also read that you can't keep one rooster with only three birds without him wearing them out.

And I've ALSO read that you shouldn't keep roosters in a bachelor pen where they can see the hens, or put them in and out, because it messes with their established hiarchy.

I only have room for four pens/runs, and no more. They're all in parallel, with one long divided coop, and runs extending out from each. Each pen in the coop is 25 sq ft, and each run per coop is 80 sq ft.

My goal is only to have a sustainable, closed flock of one breed. If I kept three trios divided into three clans and used the fourth pen/run for growing out and culling, is this enough room? Is the rooster to hen ratio wrong? My intended breed is not broody, so I'll control hatching.

But if this plan is unfeasible, I'd just as soon throw them all together and hope for the best. I know I'll have set backs every time I bring in new blood, and that's what I'm trying to avoid. But I don't want bald hens, either.

Please advise?

 

[NatJ]

I've also read that you can't keep one rooster with only three birds without him wearing them out.

And I've ALSO read that you shouldn't keep roosters in a bachelor pen where they can see the hens, or put them in and out, because it messes with their established hiarchy.

Both of those have a lot to do with the individual chickens.

Plenty of serious breeders keep one rooster with only a few hens--sometimes it works fine, sometimes the hens start to get bare backs so people put cloth "saddles" on them, and sometimes the rooster does need to be moved out for a while to give the hens a break.

The few times I've tried having a pen of just roosters, it was adjacent to the hens (wire mesh divider), and they seemed fine.

For whether the roosters would remember their heirarchy if they went back and forth, it would probably depend on how long they were in what groups.

For example, if the roosters all lived together for 6 days each week and they were put with the appropriate hens for only one day each week, they would not forget their pecking order during that one day. And yes, if a hen mates once a week, she should typically produce fertile eggs.

Or if you put each rooster in with his hens for an hour each morning, then put them all back in the bachelor pen, they would also remember their heirarchy.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

And I've ALSO read that you shouldn't keep roosters in a bachelor pen where they can see the hens, or put them in and out, because it messes with their established hiarchy.

Hi there, hope you are enjoying BYC!

As stated by the first poster.. ALL things will depend on the individuals.. what works for some may or may not for others.. so figuring out what YOU think might be best and then switching it up if you need to or as your goals change is always an option.. This hobby never stops learning and growing and changing for me!

My stag pen is kept with an adjacent attached wire fence to the hens.. where everyone can communicate and recognize each other. This is how the boys learn to treat call and flirt some and the ladies sometimes groom their face etc through the wire. My only issue is when a stag is in the hen pen if he wants to focus on fence fighting instead of being with the ladies then he can back in with his buddies immediately. They need to know where their priority lies.. here at MY place.

In order to reduce any pecking order antics.. and it has worked well for me.. I remove my stag after dark from his occupied position and put him with the ladies. After dark that night.. he goes back to the stag pen before they get up the next morning. This seems to not be enough time for them to realize a piece of the order needs to be filled and so life goes on as usual ALWAYS, so far.

Too many days of separation, usually by day two after culling.. new antics have started. To me EVEN if they do remember the previous order and I KNOW the remember the individual.. they may not agree to comply and therefore challenge what was status quo as they MAY be feeling some new confidence or their oats a little.

A strong head cock to run the stag pen is worth his weight in gold.

Using this method, I kept as many different colored egg laying breed hens as I wanted and only swap in the rooster from which breed I wish to collect hatching eggs from.. allowing more breeds to be kept with less need for so many of each to spread the love.

Please note that that selecting a ROOSTER that doesn't over mate his ladies would require them to actually be roosters and not cockerels as the two are entirely different creatures and behavior of one cannot compare to behavior of another when talking hormonal things.. behaviors change sooo much.. and this needs to be accounted and allowed for...

I do currently have 2 cockerels with 4 pullets.. free range and NO over mating... YET.

Best wishes on your wonderful adventure!

 

[Hermits Garden]

It's great that you're planning ahead! I'm a planner too, it helps me more often than not to be prepared.

Sounds like you're starting out going ALL in on a very challenging yet worthy and super rewarding project.. What breed are you gonna be working with? Is there one you're in love with in person already (or on paper)?

As to my plans--I don't tend to mess around. I've studied chickens and raising them for five years or more--had to wait til we finally quit moving. This new house we're building will be the 18th move in 26 yrs. So yep, I'm all in.

To be honest, breed selection is the ONLY part of the planning that is not going well. I want a dual purpose breed for meat and eggs that doesn't go insanely broody, has a good temperament, and will be healthy and sturdy. I'm thinking about Black Australorps. And Ameraucanas. And Dorkings. And Brabanters. And Speckled Sussex. See? I want ALL THE CHICKENS!

 

[NatJ]

To be honest, that's the ONLY part of the planning that is not going well. I want a dual purpose breed for meat and eggs that doesn't go insanely broody, has a good temperament, and will be healthy and sturdy. I'm thinking about Black Australorps. And Ameraucanas. And Dorkings. And Brabanters. And Speckled Sussex. See? I want ALL THE CHICKENS!

If you want to get birds from a hatchery, it's easy to solve: buy about 3 hens and 2 cockerels of each breed, raise them all as one flock, and see which you like best. When any bird becomes a problem, eat it. After the first year, order more of the one kind you liked best and eat all the rest. After that you'll be all set to hatch your own.

If you want to buy from breeders, then maybe you could start by looking at what is available in your area. If someone is raising them locally, then their birds are likely to do well in your climate, and seeing the birds in person could help you learn whether you like the breed. It is also much more convenient to drive a short distance and pick up the birds or eggs you are buying, instead of planning a long road trip or arranging for them to be mailed

All of the breeds you named sound like good ones for your purpose!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I'll likely buy hatchery birds, and this sounds like the best way to go! I know all birds are individuals, but getting several of each breed of interest would give me a lot of chicken dinners and a good idea of what I'm really looking for. And it would satisfy my desire to have a yard full of different chickens just once at least.

I'm gonna go out on limb here.. and suggest Wyandotte as a breed to consider for being dual purpose, fast growing and excellent tasting cockerels , with plenty of genetic specimens available and SOO many amazing looking varieties! Rose comb is still cold hardy, lay a fair amount of eggs and JUST broody enough IF YOU select accordingly. Oh and did I say HARDY??? Long lived, calm.. gee, the list goes on and on..

But one giant truth.. is nothing is ever the same in person as it is on paper.. and you already got down the individual thing both person and chicken wise.

For me.. Orps are WAY too slow for food. Swedish flower were meh, and not nearly as hardy as what I expected for being touted as land race.

Rock and EE, I tend to love. SS are beautiful but were hit and miss for me.

Marans, were fairly acceptable dp birds.. with good personalities.. My favorite rooster yet. I love straight combs. I think I might not prefer feathered shanks or feet though I never experienced ANY hardiness issues despite living in the PNW and free range on wet pasture EVEN for Silkies... which BTW, are perfectly edible too!

Ameraucana are fantastic birds, I have had a giant boy so big wouldn't fit in my cone named High Tower. Pick a breed you like and select for qualities YOU desire. I find the beard to be a drawback for open water dishes or wet feeding.

Leghorn and White faced black Spanish were really fun birds but not a good recommendation for your set up. Even though not DP, they're still perfectly good on the table.. and come to find out.. these are the ones that they like to use as "fryer".. harvest youngish since they won't get too much bigger anyways.. If you're raising what YOU truly love then maybe it's okay to get a little less meat, especially if it means more eggs?? You do YOU!

Any of the birds we are talking about will be MUCH different than the chicken carcasses found in the market.. which are often injected with brine and being Cornish Cross are very young meaning.. tender and soft or aka flavorless and mushy... which I suspect you already know, but including the following link in case you didn't know they will also cook differently according to what age you harvest, but it will also vary according to breed..
https://www.peninsulapoultrybreeders.com/cooking.html

Bielefelder, I currently keep.. I almost can't say enough good things about them. Growth rate was very acceptable meat wise. They're beautiful, auto sexing, good foragers, calm demeanor.. Waiting to see if they're slow maturing to lay or if I have nest hiders.. which I do, but not for long. Thus far I'm unimpressed with egg production quantity, but the size and quality are good.

Including all my print comparison tables for many of the breeds that exist..
Chicken Chart

pickachicken

Breeds of Chickens

Sorry, my thought are very rarely in order so one more that I saw mentioned.. Turken.. also very good birds.. surprisingly cold hardy. Ugly as ever and yet so cool.. I mean their head doesn't look anything like a turkey or change from blue to red and white.. but still good eats and personalities! I was just wondering why they were making me think about Las Vegas.. then it dawned on me.. Showgirls, LOL!

From google..

 

[Hermits Garden]

It's great that you're planning ahead! I'm a planner too, it helps me more often than not to be prepared.

Sounds like you're starting out going ALL in on a very challenging yet worthy and super rewarding project.. What breed are you gonna be working with? Is there one you're in love with in person already (or on paper)?

I answered this once, at the time I was trying to make up my mind (and changing it almost daily for weeks). But sometimes things just settle and you know what you want. I'm going to raise Buckeyes. They check all the boxes on my list; very cold hardy and moderately heat hardy, large birds that are genuinely good for both meat and eggs, friendly, and tough. And if I get them from the breeder I've been in contact with--broody enough to perpetuate themselves without being a PITA about it.

I settled on Buckeyes a while back, and then just let it set in my mind for a while. Looked at other breeds, continued to study, but I just keep going back to these, so it must be love.

 

[NatJ]

I intended to raise all of them together until they hit puberty, and then put the roosters in a bachelor pad til I decided which trios (or quartets) I wanted to group.

If you want to select for roosters that do not mate their hens bald: you could divide the hens among two or three pens and put one male in each one. Watch and see how he does for a week or so, then swap for a different male in each hen-pen and watch him. (Obviously, you would need to do this long enough before you want to collect eggs for hatching, so don't get any chicks sired by the wrong males.)

 

[Sally PB]

I have one cockerel with three pullets, all grew up together and are six months old. SO FAR it is working well! I'm aware this could change. I just have to wait and watch.

 

[Hermits Garden]

If you want to get birds from a hatchery, it's easy to solve: buy about 3 hens and 2 cockerels of each breed, raise them all as one flock, and see which you like best. When any bird becomes a problem, eat it. After the first year, order more of the one kind you liked best and eat all the rest. After that you'll be all set to hatch your own.

If you want to buy from breeders, then maybe you could start by looking at what is available in your area. If someone is raising them locally, then their birds are likely to do well in your climate, and seeing the birds in person could help you learn whether you like the breed. It is also much more convenient to drive a short distance and pick up the birds or eggs you are buying, instead of planning a long road trip or arranging for them to be mailed

All of the breeds you named sound like good ones for your purpose!

I'll likely buy hatchery birds, and this sounds like the best way to go! I know all birds are individuals, but getting several of each breed of interest would give me a lot of chicken dinners and a good idea of what I'm really looking for. And it would satisfy my desire to have a yard full of different chickens just once at least.