Mini-clan mating

[Pcmandooo]

I am working on a hobby experiment, breeding and setting a line. I have a trio of my own crossing who’s description would be a thread in itself so thats as far as ill go into that. I have a newly built “poultry palace” that has two, fly pens that are 4’widex6’longx7’tall, each having access to separate outside runs. The building will have 4-5 broody hen/hospital pens and an egg layer battery for measuring egg production and holding bitties in the spring.

My plan is to contain one line of 3 family's, with 2 hens each, within this space (8’x’12 building) starting with my chosen cockerel he will breed to family A. Ill hatch 30-40 in the spring and cull through them over summer until i end up with 2-3 good cockerels and the best pullet to replace a hen if there happens to be . The next spring ill take the best remaining family A stag to two hens from family B and proceed forward in similar fashion.

This system would return to family A every 4th year and so would be a terribly slow system. However I am focusing on longevity and genetic sustainability. What i like about this system theory is that it would be such minimal record keeping. Im only keeping 7-10birds over winter and the families recycle at around the same time they’re due to fall out of lay anyway. By the time i am recycling them i will have seen their true potential and any faults.

The only information i can find is big operations breeding all the families every year. Last season we did 11 lines and crosses and it was just too much record keeping. I need a simpler system to give me eggs through the summer and broth in the winter and so this is what i have come up with. Is or has anyone run a system like this before?

 

[keblow]

I haven't done this, but it's a clan breeding system in slow motion, and it sounds very doable and efficient. It sounds very similar to what I want to do.

 

[Pcmandooo]

I haven't done this, but it's a clan breeding system in slow motion, and it sounds very doable and efficient. It sounds very similar to what I want to do.

I see so many trying to work every family every season and its just overwhelming to try and wrap my head around that with such limited space.

 

[interior_ocean]

I'd just like to point out that if you only replace one hen every three years, after two rounds you'd always have a 3 and an 6 year old hen and 6 and 9 if one year you didn't do a replacement.

On the other hand even if you have just 15 new hens a year and choose the best two (or three at most) to replace both hens in a group that's still good enough to make small improvements or at least maintain the quality of the line. And the hens at breeding would always be 3 years old.

 

[Pcmandooo]

I agree. at the point in which the hen is three years old there would be an emphasis to replace them no matter what. so i would kind of be riding the wire. Such tight numbers don’t really allow for errors like late developing defects, disease or mortality. How difficult is it to branch off a new family if one is lost or falls short of the standard? Without bringing in new blood of course.

I'd just like to point out that if you only replace one hen every three years, after two rounds you'd always have a 3 and an 6 year old hen and 6 and 9 if one year you didn't do a replacement.

On the other hand even if you have just 15 new hens a year and choose the best two (or three at most) to replace both hens in a group that's still good enough to make small improvements or at least maintain the quality of the line. And the hens at breeding would always be 3 years old.

 

[keblow]

Just some thoughts.

This slow system could give you the time to make very careful selection and truly know what you're breeding if given a lot of attention. If you make poor selections, obviously you can ruin things pretty thoroughly, although it's true of a 'faster' system as well. I don't see a problem using a six year old hen if she has the qualities you want, she is vigorous, and laying longevity is selected for. If she isn't laying much it won't work. It sounds like the OP might have the room to breed the two lines every year, and keep four lines, so they are mated every other year. Or just keep two lines and cross them every few seasons.

Throwing it out there to mull over.

 

[interior_ocean]

How difficult is it to branch off a new family if one is lost or falls short of the standard? Without bringing in new blood of course.

Well first of all, if you have a standard you're striving for, with this system I think it's important to start with a flock that's uniform and breeds true. Otherwise each rotation is kind of like out-crossing and you're going to get too much variation. But if by standard you simply mean a certain level of quality, then it's not as important.

I agree that a six year old hen isn't necessarily too old. I suppose it depends how old the replacements are when you're going to cull the replacee. I didn't think of that. Either way it's a risk. You do have two hens per line so even if one doesn't make it to breeding you'd still have one.

Branching off a new line shouldn't be a problem. Of course it increases inbreeding but you're unlikely to get problems you can't fix by selection. When line breeding, problems are often blamed on inbreeding depression when the cause is poor selection. Even when inbreeding depression occurs, it's still not to late to start to diversify. If you practice proper selection your system could work indefinitely. And it doesn't exclude other breeding methods from being used simultaneously if you later decide to do so.

 

[keblow]

Yeah the melange of breeds OP is hinting at in his seed fowl might make things difficult. You can't exactly split into lines before combing through those bazillion traits until you've got something kinda stable, because otherwise having several lines and doing the line crossing at the end can give you a really unpredictable result. Can you do it? Yes. Might you be disappointed with it? Possibly.

I've got Asil from a hatchery that will probably give me a run for my money the first few years. Hopefully nothing was thrown in there in the past and I won't get a bunch of weird stuff cropping up.

 

[Pcmandooo]

Yeah the melange of breeds OP is hinting at in his seed fowl might make things difficult. You can't exactly split into lines before combing through those bazillion traits until you've got something kinda stable, because otherwise having several lines and doing the line crossing at the end can give you a really unpredictable result. Can you do it? Yes. Might you be disappointed with it? Possibly.

I've got Asil from a hatchery that will probably give me a run for my money the first few years. Hopefully nothing was thrown in there in the past and I won't get a bunch of weird stuff cropping up.

Yeah the melange of breeds OP is hinting at in his seed fowl might make things difficult. You can't exactly split into lines before combing through those bazillion traits until you've got something kinda stable, because otherwise having several lines and doing the line crossing at the end can give you a really unpredictable result. Can you do it? Yes. Might you be disappointed with it? Possibly.

I've got Asil from a hatchery that will probably give me a run for my money the first few years. Hopefully nothing was thrown in there in the past and I won't get a bunch of weird stuff cropping up.

Setting the line is still a few years out and something ill put into a separate thread once i have the time. The short of it being a peacomb white leghorn, large white egg, thicker in feather and in the 4.5 lb hen, 6.5lb cock range, with emphasis on feed consumption ratio/egg production, and ability to thrive in my region where temps go from lows of -20 degrees to highs of 104 degrees.The line will be set with sibling matings then spread out to this clan mating system. This current thread however is just brainstorming this mini-clan mating system.

 

[Pcmandooo]

Well first of all, if you have a standard you're striving for, with this system I think it's important to start with a flock that's uniform and breeds true. Otherwise each rotation is kind of like out-crossing and you're going to get too much variation. But if by standard you simply mean a certain level of quality, then it's not as important.

I agree that a six year old hen isn't necessarily too old. I suppose it depends how old the replacements are when you're going to cull the replacee. I didn't think of that. Either way it's a risk. You do have two hens per line so even if one doesn't make it to breeding you'd still have one.

Branching off a new line shouldn't be a problem. Of course it increases inbreeding but you're unlikely to get problems you can't fix by selection. When line breeding, problems are often blamed on inbreeding depression when the cause is poor selection. Even when inbreeding depression occurs, it's still not to late to start to diversify. If you practice proper selection your system could work indefinitely. And it doesn't exclude other breeding methods from being used simultaneously if you later decide to do so.

As far as selection i have the capacity to hatch and grow up to 90 chicks, as well as an auction nearby to sell. so as long as i can do selection at 8, 14, and 22 weeks i can cover feed and or break even on most costs. That being said. Maybe final selection would be better to take place the following late spring, which would put more birds in the poultry house over winter but also allow for a more thorough evaluation.