SOP anywhere online?

[exop]

I take strong issue with the use of illustrations rather than photos to illustrate the Standard of Perfection.

For one thing, it is doubtful whether any one artist could ever have the intimate familiarity with every breed of poultry to accurately portray the subtle differences between breeds in head carriage, beak, posture, tail feathering and body structure, which are often so subtle in fact that breeds "drift" in appearance because of lax breeding...

For another, the very nature of illustration means that things can be portrayed that have perhaps, never existed, and perhaps never could.

A standard of perfection should really be based on a best specimen approach, where members of a breed are compared to the best specimen ever seen of that breed. It should not be about continually evolving members of a breed toward some hypothetical idea of what the breed could look like. The U.S. show silkie is one example of breed migration where years of an evolving popular consensus of what a breed should strive for... has resulted in a bird that looks quite unlike its purebred Chinese ancestors.

Granted that it might be hard to find an almost-perfect specimen of every breed and every color pattern... there should at least be photos of some body parts. Eg. for the Silkie, this could include photos of several different "good" Silkie feet, photos clarifying what exactly is meant by "breast carried well forward" to discourage people from striving for over-protuberant breasts and backward-leaning birds... etc.

A final point, an artists' own style is unavoidably part of his/her work, and so is the artistic lens through which drawings are viewed in any era. Mixing drawing with chickens is going to introduce another layer of fuzz around the image. Everyone who has looked at a lot of nineteenth century illustrations of chickens knows what I mean. You can look at photographs taken in the same time period, and voilà! They look recognizably like the breeds we know today. In contrast, drawings of Polish from the same period look very weird. It's as if the Victorians had a very different way of processing "what crests looked like". If you've ever seen a drawing or an ad and thought to yourself, "wow, that looks really 1970s", that's exactly the sort of thing I mean. Do we all really want to look back on the SOP in 20 years and think, "wow, those birds in the pictures all look so 2010". ..? "My rooster looks very 2010"?

The illustrator they have picked looks like she has done a fairly neutral, clear depiction of most of the different breeds, but I take issue a little with the pseudo-Victorian styling of the polish, and the abrupt color patches shown in the blue Silkies. And those are the breeds that I am more familiar with.

I would love to have a real photographic reference work for the breeds. Storey's Illustrated Guide to Poultry, but containing only birds that are true to type, and with some closeups of the problem points.

The search for an absolutely perfect specimen need not put people off: how about showing photos of two birds who both have perfect bits, but complementary ones: "Rooster with excellent shank color, hackles and tail" vs. "closeup of desired comb shape" from a different rooster?

Best - exop

 

[exop]

Quote:
Would be nice to have both, but the illistrations portray the perfect bird. That's why it's called the Standard of PERFECTION Even with photos of the best birds, they will still have faults. The SOP shows what to aim for, albeit, it may never be obtained.

Now, that's just depressing.

Aren't these breeds which we are raising because they have something of merit in them already? If one raises Rhode Island Reds, why would one strive for a A Rhode Island Red unlike any that has come before? That's almost insulting to the breed.

And beside the point, that breeding just to aesthetics can result in the loss of functionality.

I know someone who rails on about "the American Suffolk sheep" which he feels has been allowed to become a lean and unmeaty, antelope-like creature, unlike the original English meat breed.

Performance metrics really ought to enter into poultry judging, but I don't know how that could be handled. I think it is for the Marans, where egg color is part of the judging? Rate of lay, egg size, and the relative meatiness of different body parts should be maintained somehow...

Best - exop

 

[Chris09]

If one reads in the front of the Standard of Perfection (page 1 in the 2001 copy of the SoP) it states;

"The color pictures in the Standard of Perfection are the artist's interpretation of the written description of each breed and variety portrayed. Their purpose is to give a general idea of each bird.
DO NOT take these portraits as examples of the perfect specimen. The written text is the description of the ideal bird."

So in short the pictures are merely there to look at.

Chris​

 

[exop]

Chris09, quoting the 2001 SOP :

"The written text is the description of the ideal bird."

If anything, this is worse, because human interpretation of a textual description is so subjective. Here's a snippet from the Silkie standard:

"Breast: Carried forward, very full, well rounded and of great depth and width"

Over the years, Silkie breasts have gotten rounder and rounder looking, and more and more protuberant. Some birds look almost as if their head is set in the middle of their back. Surely this is not what the standard indicates.

Why, then, is it still going in this direction? As the breed as a whole has moved to a point where the breast is "perfected", that is, pleasantly round and full, those breasts start to look like the norm. To get to "very full, great depth and width" the exhibitor has to aim for a breast comparatively larger than the other birds - whose breasts are already fine. So a realistic visual reference can be a valuable tool, allowing us to see what the words mean, and helping to put a curb on the human tendency to overdo things.

I remember seeing a documentary about domestic dog breeds on TV last year, which talked about how the English Bulldog has been bred for aesthetics over the years to the point where its exaggerated body shape is interfering with its health. Prize dogs, with their tiny waists and massive skulls and shoulders, now have trouble giving birth naturally and it's common for the puppies to be delivered via caesarian.

Best - exop​

 

[snowbird]

Back to the original Question, Walt Leonard has stated in the past that all of the Standard of perfection books are copyrighted and should not show up on the internet as this is how a large part of the APA money is received from sales of the SOP. Don

 

[EweSheep]

The problem APA will have, so many thousands of "quotes" from the APA SOP book, it would be too hard to track down everything across internet. As long it is not being published or copied by copier or printer, then it would not affect this very much for their $$$$. I, for one, would share it to anyone that requests it, but no photos or anything I can copy off my printer. As my father said, after working with a MAJOR corporation that deals with this kind of thing day in and day out. As long you are NOT selling the copied book, you are ok but you MUST get permission from the publisher if you are wanting to SELL the books with your own copying machine. However if you are just taking parts or section of a book, no, it is NOT illegial to do so. If you MUST copy the book, be sure it is in YOUR own use, YOUR own home and never could be sold, you can write all over the pages of your notes, it is OK there. I've had stud books I've copied, kept, wrote all over the pages, highlighted it, and gave away when I decided to get rid of all the horse books I've had.

I've had copies of many books, for research for my OWN uses so as long you put it under the title BY the APA or "taken by the APA" then it would work however for serious exhibitors, they would need the REAL SOP book, as I do have one but it is old and some of the information were outdated.

Copyright laws are only good for 50 years from the time the book were published. AFter that, it does not stand. Same for photographs.

Internet is a very wide media to keep tracking down every publications being copied, as long we don't flame, twist, or misinformed the public of the actual SOP, then it would be ok. I've was afraid of the government coming to my door about that and my father set me right on that one at that time. It is like seeing a tag on the pillow or mattress, do not remove, it is illegial to do so. OMG! If I take the tag off, would the government be on my butt for taking it off LOL! Until the government re worded it, people could breathe a sigh of relief.

If I go to the UK, their standards are being published on there, you can copy and use it on your websites or provide a link OR put "Courtesy or taken from the UK site". They are all ok with that because I did ask them ahead of time.

 

[snowbird]

Ewesheep, So basically what you are saying is take the APA's means of staying in business away because you don't want to buy a SOP.

Maybe Walt will come by and give you the reasons why the SOP is copyrighted. Don

 

[EweSheep]

Not at all. It is the chicken's owner choice in buying the SOP books. If they ask, we have that choice to give them the information on whats the SOP would be on certain breeds. If they want a hard copy, they would need to go and get the SOP themselves from the APA. No way I would copy the entire book, takes too much time and money and by the time you get done, you might just well enough to buy the new book. If you want certain breeds, no problem.

I didnt have to buy the SOP standard from the APA themselves, I bought it from a private owner, didn't pay the full price but it does have nice information on it. Those old time drawings were something else that they have not changed in years until the last decade or two. The description is still the same. So no matter what APA is doing, they can not get ALL the monies from selling their books and books that has been bought by someone else or handed down. Like I said, APA will NEVER EVER lose money, our show monies, membership fees, additional booklets, made it possible for them to continue and they WILL thrive as LONG people are doing it. We promote the breed, so we would show our birds, paying for anything to get into the APA, all monies go to them or a percentage of it. Every breeds, whether it is chickens or horses, they will have websites of the standards. There is a limitation to how, what we can do to put it on internet and be honest about it as well as promoting APA by putting on their links and if they want to buy it, there is the link they can go and buy it.

Sure I made a copy from the APA standard for a 4H kid, only on her RIR section, nothing else. Copied the front cover, the publication cover, for date, and the section of the RIR SOP. The kid can have the copy for her OWN use and boy, did she wrote all over the back of the pages, the breeders, their addresses, etc. and by the time the shows were over, the copy was tattered and well worn. She wanted a new one....guess what, her parents BOUGHT her a new APA book for her because she expressed interests in other breeds. So how is that for starters? She still has the copies and filed it away because she said if I need to look it up, without tearing up her new book, she got a copy and wrote any changes from the new one to the old one. I am sure many of us do not like to bring out our new SOP and get it dirty LOL. I sure don't. Even my library has the SOP and people have been copying off of it. Like I said, it would be such a HUGE task for the APA to track down everyone in the city to buy their books.

There is a link that I can access to for the old APA standard of perfection. Someone posted it somewhere but can not find it. Let me try and search for it. It may or may not be complete.

If the APA have real objections about people using the sections of the standards for breed websites or for personal uses, I am sure some of us would go elsewhere like UK to get the standards. It would cause much mass confusions and it will be divided on how we would raise our birds, either to the UK standards or to the USA standards. I know it is America but if we want to show, it would be up to us how we want it to be like.

I would like to hear Walt's reasons and comments about the copyrightsand be able to answer any questions we have about using the APA standard information on internet or personal uses. It would be a real learning curve for me. It would be a real tough work for APA and chicken owners alike dealing with these issues of what we can broadcast and use the APA standards to our own use, not for business but to promote the breed and support any clubs we have.