Standard of Perfection

[Sonoran Silkies]

I believe I read in the ABA literature that they give a cash award AT the ABA National meet. Seems as though they sell several of the Bands and I believe they sell out every year.

From http://gator541.hostgator.com/~bant...tion=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=64
"As a reminder, in addition to the standard awards offered at the annual and semi-annual meets each year, the ABA offers an additional $50 for Champion Bantam and $25 for Reserve Champion if either winner is wearing an appropriately sized seamless ABA leg band. The ABA thanks everyone who has supported this program in the past, as well as our new customers!!"

 

[AllenWMiller]

Robert I hope my feeble attempt at your question makes a little sense and does some good toward answering your question. One thing I didn't make clear was that you don't require a "partner" for this breeding method you just need enough room to keep two or three isolated and independent strains. We all have this kind of room right?

The "old master" you mentioned must have been a generous soul. I have not known many breeders that would jointly share their strain and their secrets to creating and maintaining said strain.

So many lost strains gone and most forgotten I suppose. My Light Brahmas and White Plymouth Rocks pale in comparison to old strains I remember (either that or my eyes have failed under the strain!). It would have served us all better then to be more vigilant about passing on our ideas and insights. Alas it is impossible to maintain a strain for more than one breeder's lifetime!

 

[Robert Blosl]

Thank you Mr. Miller. When you open up for comments this is like brain storming and someone comes along and types in a key term. You type that into your search engine and you can learn even more. I think allot of Holstein Dairy Farmers are using this approach. They have to have high yields of pounds of milk per cow to make a profit.

It is quite simple in my new strain of Rhode Island Red bantams I did something no one has done be for. I shrunk down a large fowl strain to a bantam it took 20 years of work. I have two guys who I gave a trio to free who live six hundred miles away from me. I work with them on breeding color as they are masters of type. Then ever four to six years we will trade the best female of the year to each other. Cross this female into each others strain and go on line breeding for another five or so years. Out of the three of us we should have at least two who can keep the type and color on track and not screw up. Both guys swore they would never cross another line of red bantams onto my line. This year I will help four others. I helped over 50 people in 14 years with my Mohawk line of Rhode Island Red large fowl. Out of these 50 I have two who stuck with the program and never crossed their birds onto another line. The others did or failed because lacking general poultry rearing skills. The breeder be for me helped about 100 people and when he died he had two guys still breeding his line. Me and a fellow in Ohio. The lady that started this line in 1912 helped I bet 3000 people when she died she only had two people with her line. Mr. Reese and Mr. Day in Georgia. You can sell allot of chicks and eggs to people but few stick with the line. Like Ralph Sturgeon once told me many are called but few are chosen.

A foot note: Mr.Donaldson got eggs and chicks from a place called Owen Farms in 1912. Does anyone know who the poultry manager of this farm was and a hint he is in the Rhode Island Red Club Hall of Fame. Thanks Mr. Miller. for your help. You are like a new 100 watt light bulb on this board. bob

 

[Minniechickmama]

Thanks Mr. Miller. for your help. You are like a new 100 watt light bulb on this board. bob

Here Here!!!
Mr. Miller, you have inspired me. Thank you.
I have a friend who is a National rabbit breeder who is also got some good poultry going on her new farm. I met her through rabbits and now we share much about both species. She told me when I started with my kids, color is only 15 pts. That has stuck with me. I have applied this to breeding my poultry as well. You wouldn't put siding on a house before you put the foundation in, so why would it be any different than breeding animals? It is funny, we apply standards of doing better with animals more than our own species. Not judging but the thought just occurred to me.

It makes absolute sense.
If you just want to look at color, grow flowers, but if you want to breed poultry or any other animals, in my mind it should be with the intention of improving on what came before. It is a legacy. For me, I hope that at least one of my 3 kids has what I am doing stay with them in life. It is important to preserve things that are good whether it be an animal species, breed or the knowledge about them. It saddens me to see breeders out there who just want to keep the good for themselves and not share their knowledge or their stock because they are afraid someone might come along and beat them in the show ring. I feel they are in this for all the wrong reasons. If I know or discover something I know what will help somone do better with what they have, I am going to make sure I give every effort in sharing that with them, ESPECIALLY with folks who are younger than I am.
I see that is what you are doing here, Dr. Miller (and yes Sir, you DO deserve to carry that title), and I am so grateful that there are people like you who will share with those of us with so much yet to learn.
Theri Voss

 

[AllenWMiller]

When you open up for comments this is like brain storming and someone comes along and types in a key term. You type that into your search engine and you can learn even more. I think allot of Holstein Dairy Farmers are using this approach. They have to have high yields of pounds of milk per cow to make a profit.

And yes Robert, the in and in inbreeding methods are used in a variety of animal breeding projects and cattle and swine heavily rely on this method. But as I said it has been used on a variety of Aves as well. The difficulty with chickens and in and in breeding is controlling the breeding process generally. With bovine and swine we use artificial insemination almost exclusively with in and in breeding and grading generally. Likewise, with various endangered Aves, including the original Bald Eagle Program of the 60's and 70's artificial insemination was also used. This insures successful and standardized breeding, a term we are all becoming more familiar with. I now of only a few breeders who have used artificial insemination with chickens; though the process once learned is relatively easy to adapt to poultry.

JA

 

[AllenWMiller]

Robert you post an interesting question and if I correctly understand you are raising this question:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"What is the term if there is one for crossing back such a line every five to say eight years.????? Its a type of OUT CROSSING but it is the same gene pool that both breeders started 50 years earlier." I think to what you referred is "sustained in and in inbreeding".[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Interspersed with the above question, you discuss improving a strain of White Plymouth Rocks (WPR) using line breeding (modified inbreeding) and liberal inbreeding and things you touch upon in your message seem to indicate this method.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I bring up two old timers from the past to answer this complex question - Harry Graves and Maurcie Delanao (arguably two of the greatest fathers of the breed). They employed similar methods to develop and maintain their strains of White Plymouth Rocks.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Your "1000 mile distance" isn't what's important; rather isolating two distinct but genetically identical strains of WPR's is what you seek. Likewise, obtaining a 3rd strain completely unrelated is necessary as well.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As I was starting a beginner's discussion under the SOP string regarding "inbreeding"; this form of inbreeding you are raising would be considered even beyond the scope advanced breeding. I know of only a handful of poultry-men who have ever pursued this method of two and three line inbreeding programs; as it requires extreme patience, diligence and fortitude to accomplish. I am also not sure you could find 3 genetically pure lines of White Plymouth Rocks today.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I will clumsily attempt to explain this method as explained to me by Harry Graves over half a century ago, below as simply and briefly as I can:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Grading-up (selective breeding) and in and in inbreeding takes a period of 5 to 15 years. Grading-back (out breeding) through in and inbreeding takes another 5 to 9 years.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The first planned mating of the first cross of WPR hens with WPR cockerels, referred to is F1, inter se mating. Accordingly, suitable first generation cocks are mated to selected hens; as always based on SOP. These progenitors are grouped to avoid inbreeding and kept distinct in two groups. The offspring of the F1, inter se matings, the F2 generation, are the "double cross" in the line. The objective in the F2 or double cross, generation is to obtain cockerels, which will be purest in color, and superior to both progenitors of both first crosses.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It takes several years for the best individual first-cross cockerels to be singled out. The best cockerel of the first F2 “double cross” of the progenitors becomes the Alpha Cock (AC). Without question he must be superior in all aspects of body, size and color.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From this AC, planned mating continues using the AC crossing back to the original progenitor hens creating an Alpha one first generation F1A. From this generation are selected the two best of AC sons which are place back with the progenitor hens of both groups producing AC FA1 “double cross” generation. Now taking hens from the first generation AC FA1 double cross back to AC to produce second generation AC FA2 double cross. The hens from this cross are then taken and separated and culled into two classes and crossed with AC's first generation sons. (Note here it would take too long to explain the re crossing of AC's grandsons back to the grandmother's but the math is the same as explained above.) The results after usually 10 or more generations is the creation of two stable, separate but genetically identical lines.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]These lines tend to weaken and so Grading-back is necessary by drawing stock from the Graded-up stock and this is where it gets a bit shaded. You have to either have a separate line of WPR completely unrelated to the two strains created or you had better know the Grading-up line of stock you will chose your new cock to Grade-out your strains.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Grading-up is the system of breeding, whereby, generation after generation of standard bred cocks are used on the similar standard bred hens of the same flock but where the cocks are unrelated to the females major improvement, through heterosis, results in the F* generation. Performance and type approaches that of the purebred in the succeeding generations. After the sixth generation, the graded flock will be genetically similar to the in an in bred generations. Important consideration in a grading-up program is that the cocks used should be performance tested and the production level must be high.[/FONT]


I wanted to post this message from the other string I was answering Robert's question on because it goes along with the SOP breeding discussions we've been having here and I'm not sure how many folks here are following the string I wrote this in. I misunderstood Robert's question but it raised a complex breeding issue that still holds validity and worthy of consideration for all serious breeds. So if you didn't read the other string and have any interest just click the above spoiler.

 

[AllenWMiller]

Walt, I have an SOP question for you regarding White Plymouth Rocks and all chickens generally as to when they were recognized and admitted into the Standard are these two dates different I wonder?

First question is what years were all the Plymouth Rocks recognized by the APA?

Second, what year were all the Plymouth Rocks admitted into the SOP?



Not being involved with the APA, but always using the SOP for breeding purposes I've been somewhat confused (okay a lot confused at times but I'm old) about these two dates. And more confused about when the Rocks are listed on the APA site for these dates. Since I know your position with the APA is directly involved with the SOP I would appreciate any insight you can give me on this matter to update me and bring me into the 21st century.

Thank you very much for your time and help.

JA

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Dr. Miller - I think my initial question may have been missed -

I am not yet educated in genetics but trying to improve that. I have a question about Marans and egg colour. You mentioned that a 6 year old hen will be laying lighter eggs. Assuming that she is a good all-round bird (type meets SOP) and laid a very dark egg earlier in her life, is she likely to pass that initial darkness on to her off-spring even if it is hatched out of her now lighter egg?

I also have a BCM pullet that started out laying HUGE eggs (not double yokers). Never any that I would describe as pullet eggs. The eggs are getting lighter at this point so I assume we may be getting to the end of her laying cycle. However, the eggs are also getting smaller. I've not see that before. Is that typical? Does it mean anything?

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Walt, I have an SOP question for you regarding White Plymouth Rocks and all chickens generally as to when they were recognized and admitted into the Standard are these two dates different I wonder?

First question is what years were all the Plymouth Rocks recognized by the APA?

Second, what year were all the Plymouth Rocks admitted into the SOP?



Not being involved with the APA, but always using the SOP for breeding purposes I've been somewhat confused (okay a lot confused at times but I'm old) about these two dates. And more confused about when the Rocks are listed on the APA site for these dates. Since I know your position with the APA is directly involved with the SOP I would appreciate any insight you can give me on this matter to update me and bring me into the 21st century.

Thank you very much for your time and help.

JA

I'm not Walt but I do have a SOP - and from that I see the first Plymouth Rocks (Barred) were admitted to the first "Standard of Excellence" in 1874. Whites were second, in 1888. Followed by Buff in 1894, Silver Penciled in 1907, Partridge and Columbian in 1910, and finally, Blue in 1920. It also says that the first breed of poultry to bear this name was exhibited at the first poultry show in Boston in 1849. However, these birds are not believed to represent the present Barred Plymouth Rocks that made their appearance in 1869.

 

[fowlman01]

I'm not Walt but I do have a SOP - and from that I see the first Plymouth Rocks (Barred) were admitted to the first "Standard of Excellence" in 1874. Whites were second, in 1888. Followed by Buff in 1894, Silver Penciled in 1907, Partridge and Columbian in 1910, and finally, Blue in 1920. It also says that the first breed of poultry to bear this name was exhibited at the first poultry show in Boston in 1849. However, these birds are not believed to represent the present Barred Plymouth Rocks that made their appearance in 1869.

Thanks Goddess. The recognition date/acceptance to the APA would be the same date. It is just another way of saying it. The barred Rocks of the old days came in two versions. Light and dark. Now the APA recognizes just one shade of barring, but light barring still pops out on a regular basis. Now that the SOP is printed and distributed, the SOP Committee is working on taking the old Rock Standard. (It had its own book) and we are making it into a about four booklets that the APA will be selling sometime down the road. We will only be using info that is still valid today. Most of it is still valid as it turns out.

I have a short clip on collected sperm from a chicken if anyone wants me to post that. I will have to upload it to Youtube later.

Walt