Students!!! AAAAAGH!

Why should I allow them to take 4 tests, and then drop one? No boss on the planet is going to allow that. "Here. We have these 4 very important clients with very important projects. Go ahead and screw one over. We'll lose the client and all the income they could have produced, but that's okay. I know your life is busy."
School is their job. While they may have a family and a job and umpteen other things to do, they have chosen to come to school to work towards a degree. If they are not willing to do the work, then perhaps they need to wait until they can handle the workload. Otherwise they need to be more organized and plan better.

No, we never let them drop an exam--if they took it, it got included in their grade, but they had to decide whether or not to take it. The basic problem this solves is that when you have a lecture of 500 students (which I did), and the department has resources for exactly two TAs, there is just no way on earth to manage the logistics of make-up exams. Worse, in my experience, a LOT of people asking for make-up exams cheat--they've already got the answers or the gist of the questions from someone else, they know you're not going to write 50 different exams. Certainly there are many legit excuses, but there are also a LOT of cheaters and with one professor, two TAs and 50-100 students who will demand a make-up exam if they think they have half a chance, you're going to get more cheaters and more dead grandmothers than you can handle. Also, extra credit assignments from 500 students is just not feasible to manage, so we told them they could not have extra credit if they were doing poorly, but they COULD take the final if they felt they needed it to boost their grade. You know as well as I do that it doesn't matter how they were told, they'll ask/demand anyway, just in case.

Sadly, I know an awful lot of bosses who not only DO allow that, but do much worse than that themselves. Hate to break it to you, but if colleges are really attempting to prepare students for the working world, there should probably be a major in brown-nosing, golfing, spewing incomprehensible horsepuckey and sleeping your way to the top...competence, knowledge of the subject matter, intelligence, not so much.

It's not a matter of being unwilling to do the work, it's just that when you're doing that much, things get tightly scheduled to the minute for a couple of days. I know this is difficult for academics to understand, but the rest of the world does not have the same flexible schedule in their daily life that the Ivory Tower enjoys--and the vast majority of people will never enjoy that flexibility in any job, unless they have an awful lot of education. You see the circular logic here? No education -> no workplace flexibility -> no education. I never had any workplace flexibility in what hours I was working and when I could take time off until I had a Master's, and even then my boss gave me heck about it. Now, I can come in whenever and do whatever, as long as the work gets done--and of course any school I do at this point is purely for the love of learning! Would you really tell an EMT who was working on that car wreck, "Sorry, you're going to have to tell your shift manager to stop cleaning up bodies and hauling them to the hospital because you have to take the final within 24 hours"? What about the hospital nurse caring for the crash victims, or the police officer helping to clear traffic? They take classes too--should they quit because their jobs are not flexible when it comes to emergencies? Do you not want them to take continuing education to keep up on their skills? Many of those jobs don't pay enough that they will ever be able to quit entirely for several years to dedicate themselves to school.

I do realize that schools have plenty of students and aren't exactly hurting for warm bodies to fill the seats, so there is absolutely no motivation for you to accommodate students. I just think it's not good for society and serves only the fairly privileged when you're that strict--you'd be very upset if the people whose jobs you rely on (first responders, teachers, nurses, doctors--yes, even MDs) were incompetent or using outdated techniques because they couldn't get the education to do better.​
 
I think if we all step back and think for a moment, we would all agree on some things.

1. You cannot compare business to education. Two different animals.

2. As educators our job is to give students the knowledge and skills from our particular expertise.

3. Test are for information. It is to let us as educators know if what we taught was retained. Dropping a test is basically saying I know you screwed up so I'm gonna let you off the hook. Life does not do that. You don't get "redo's" in life. School is a micro- life. It should reflect that.

4. Our ultimate goal is to produce a student who is capable of performing in the selected field and becoming a productive member of society.
 
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They already know how to do this. It would be redundant to reteach this material.
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I worked in the "real world" for a decade and a half before joining the world of academia. I still freelance in the "real world" on top of my academic schedule. In the "real world" I worked from 9am-5pm five days a week. In academia, once our semester starts I work at least 6 days a week and always work from 9am until 6pm. When we are in production I work 9am until 11pm 7 days a week. I typically get two weekends off a semester. I work umpteen times as hard in academia as I ever worked out in the "real world". (Now, I do get Christmas break and summer break. Thank heavens for that! Of course, I spend those breaks working on research and creative activities so that one day hopefully I will get tenure. But they are mini breaks in the chaos.) I work just as hard (likely harder) than my students trying to make their academic experience the best it can be. I actively work at building our program. I actively work at finding work and internship opportunities for my students so that they are able to graduate and move directly into a job. The only flexibility I have is that I get to be working all the time instead of 9-5. I do this job for less than I made at my "real world" job. Yup. I took a pay cut to come educate the youth of America. I happily do it because I do care about my kids and I really want them to succeed. I love my job and strive to be the best possible. The workload is worth it because the job is so rewarding. I realize that some professors are slackers and uninterested in their students, but I would bet the majority of them are a lot like me. We certainly don't do it for the money.
I think it is fair to expect the students to work as hard as I do. I also have an outside life with family concerns and whatnot. I also have other things I want to do. Instead I suck it up and do my work. Trust me. Many mornings I would much rather stay in bed or park my tush out by the chicken coops and play with the babies. Instead I go to work.

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These are not the problem students. These are the students that I love to have in my classes. They work hard and get their work in on time. I have never had a non-traditional student fail my class. Actually, I don't think I've ever had a non-traditional student not complete all of the work required. They are traditionally excellent students with a great work ethic. They are not the problem.

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Actually we spend quite a bit of time and energy recruiting students. We do realize that students have many educational options. Because I am "so strict" as you say, my students leave my classes ready to work. Every single one of my students that has wanted a job, I have gotten into a job. That is the best recruiting tool I have. That is ultimately the goal of their education after all.

I am not "strict" just to be mean and hateful. I actually give my students a lot of leeway. I know that life happens. When a student comes to me with problems and situations, I happily accommodate them when it is feasible. I also am governed by university rules and these rules are non-negotiable. If I can help them, I will help them. I fail to see how or why I should help them though if they have not held up their end of the bargain. There has to be some personal accountability. Sadly, that seems to be lacking in many, many of today's students. What you see as "strict" is merely my expecting them to be responsible.
 
LOL! at Rosalind saying:

"Hate to break it to you, but if colleges are really attempting to prepare students for the working world, there should probably be a major in brown-nosing, golfing, spewing incomprehensible horsepuckey and sleeping your way to the top...competence, knowledge of the subject matter, intelligence, not so much."

That made my day! Too funny and oh so true!

I have to agree with you too, CityGirlintheCountry. So much of what you said was spot on. The school I have been working at has a lot of non-traditional students and almost all of our professors are adjuncts. Both are there because they really *want* to be there. Of course, we have a sizable element of younger kids as well that are there because they have to be (forced by parents, nothing better to do, etc...) They can really be cogs in the wheel.

My whole point has been that it is exactly these non-trads that have outside jobs and lives that would have trouble making up a test within 24 hours, even potentially a short one. Anyway, I am over that conversation personally. It sounds like we have some awesome teachers here. That mirrors my experience in real life. I know so many excellent professors that will do just about anything to help someone succeed. Most of them don't do it for the money, definitely not at my school where they make only $1,350 per 3-credit hour class (yes, $1,350!)
 
Many of the people on here appear to have worked their way through college. I know I sure did! I worked in under grad and all through grad school. I would never have completely ignored an instruction like that.

And I have seen employers ask far more demanding things of their employees. One comment was If you didn't do it because you had another job and then got fired how would you feel? Well, I would feel fired.

My employer does not have to give a rats patootie about my other job. I might feel angry and fired, but I'd still be fired. It is exactly the same way with school. Students who were responsible, contacted me immediately and let me know what their status was got leeway. Students who contacted me at five minutes before it was due with problems got a little less leeway. Students who contacted me four hours AFTER the deadline got none.

I once worked for a factory which made Just In Time parts (that is an inventory control system) for another factory. I hated this system because it meant we got the order each morning at 6AM and had to ship it by 6 PM. On day a major piece of equipment broke down. The only replacement part was in Canada. Do you think the company said, "Gee, Oh well we'll shut down and wait for you to get it fixed?" No they gave us a six hour extension. My boss flew to canada and got the piece. Everyone on staff worked through the night wether they wanted to or had other plans or not. I even ended up putting a couple of people's kids in the conference room until other family members could come get them. The bosses did not care if they had to pick up the kids, they said mandatory overtime and mandatory it was.

And I don't see how my schedule is so flexible now. I don't set my class times, half the time I don't even get a say in what I am going to teach! At this facility I don't even get to choose the textbook!



BTW they did send a police car the wrong way up the highway to meet an organ donor transport company that was carrying organs to the airport. That made the paper too.
 
Well, to me, it is all relative. There is a difference between helping out an employer that has a "one time" or unusual incident that completely shuts down production and working for a company that has blatant disregard for its employees. (These comments are solely about employers, not an analogy to your school situation).

Anyway, I have always been the type of person that is willing to go the extra mile to help my employer when they are in a bind. I am also the type of person that will NOT work for an employer that doesn't appreciate/respect me or would fire employees at the drop of the hat.

Fortunately, I was out in the workforce for many years before I returned to school and I always found my skills to be marketable enough that I didn't have to stay in an insufferable work environment. When I have been in a supervisory position, I have treated my fellow employees very well and always did the most for them that I possibly could when they needed it. I'm sure a lot of people here are the same way.
 
Since so many people chimed in on this you all tell me what you think I should do with this one!! I DID make it to this exam!
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Professor,

This is in regrards to my absense at the final exam this morning. I could make up an excuse but honeslty to a reason even unknown to myself I thought it was tomorrow untill I double checked the website a few moments ago. I don't even know what can be done at this point but I am willing to do anything whether it mean take the exam at a differnet time or do an alternative assignment. I've had you as a teacher for the last two semester and I hope you would realize that I am not the type of student to simply skip an exam. I didnt have any finals all week except this one and I stayed instead of trying to take it on the earlier alternative date. I understand if nothing can be done with this situation but like I said i will do anything at this point. Please contact me back. My email again is ******* and my cell phone is **********.
Thank you,

I did have her last year and she has been an average under the radar no problem student.........

Advice??​
 
These are not the problem students. These are the students that I love to have in my classes. They work hard and get their work in on time. I have never had a non-traditional student fail my class. Actually, I don't think I've ever had a non-traditional student not complete all of the work required. They are traditionally excellent students with a great work ethic. They are not the problem.

I'm glad you think so. That was not at all my experience, and when I was teaching, I heard a lot of complaints from faculty about nontraditional students always asking for "special privileges"--like being available for appointments outside of twice-weekly office hours, asking to use the previous edition of the text or texts from the library instead of the $300 latest-n-greatest version, asking for extra reading material--yes, I actually heard more than one professor complain to me that they were being asked for extra reading material by nontraditional students, which they felt was excessive and unacceptable because it was "for some work assignment or something." Instead of being overjoyed that a student was taking an interest and applying the lesson to real life, they were annoyed that their valuable consulting skillz were being used for the mere cost of tuition. I got chewed out by one such professor while I was TA-ing for him, because I had the nerve to give out such reading material enthusiastically. And back in the day when I WAS a nontraditional student, I took a raft of you-know-what from professors who were clearly unhappy that I could not attend their 10pm study session, quit my job to work for free in their lab for no credit, or spare a lot of money for traveling to conferences on my own dime to present my work.

I sympathize fully with your frustration at students who simply are not ready for the responsibilities of college. My favorite email excuse of all time was that a student could not attend an exam because she was too hung over from a kegger the night before; the best complaint I ever heard in person was a student who shouted loudly in the middle of a large lecture hall, "(this question) isn't fair! You can't make us get questions wrong on the exam, just because we weren't paying attention in class!" I know it happens, I know it's maddening. I'm just saying, I also know that 16 hour shifts after a scheduled exam happen, and people don't always check their email more than once daily--and 48 hours isn't an unreasonable deadline.

Anyway, WRT the average student who spaced it on the exam date: What are the options for things like "incomplete" or whatever at your school? Some schools, "incomplete" can mean anything--I had a couple on my transcript due to a medical problem that kept me out of school for several weeks, no big deal. Some schools, "Incomplete" might as well be a Fail. I would leave it as Incomplete if that is sort of a neutral thing where you are. If where you are, I = F, then I suppose I would give a make-up assignment, but it would be about the nastiest make-up assignment of all time, evil enough that she might wish she'd taken the I. There would be essays involved. With points off for spelling and grammar, as evidenced by the email.​
 
I just wanted to say...

I do miss tests at school, sometimes assignments, but I would NEVER under ANY circumstances miss an exam unless for some reason I was dying or whatever.

I once almost missed an english exam and almost failed the course but that was when I was in grade 9 and I have since been to every exam even if I failed I still went and did my best on the exam. Often I find that an exam can pull a student up from a 60 to something remotely okay. I was able to pull myself from a 65 in law to a 72 last semester all because of my exam and I'm pleased with that.

We learn these things in high school and university should be no different.

I think some students take university for granted, if you dont have to work to get there then what are you really there for? I went to school with a guy who did nothing but sit on his butt all school year and get high and somehow he got into York U over someone like me who despite numerous problems in my life did the work and tried my best.

I'm going to be in university in september (I'm 20 and I took two years out of school, one back in school this year so I could upgrade my credits to U level credits so I could get into university in the first place) at Trent University for a BA in English Literature and I fully respect deadlines. My school has zero tolerance for missed exams unless it is a medical emergency and you can write the exam earlier if necessary (I went to England one year to see family and wrote my fashion exam a week early so I didn't miss it).
 
I have WHAT in my yard? :

Since so many people chimed in on this you all tell me what you think I should do with this one!!
This is in regrards to my absense at the final exam this morning.(...) I understand if nothing can be done with this situation but like I said i will do anything at this point.

I did have her last year and she has been an average under the radar no problem student.........

Advice??​

I'd be inclined to allow her to retake it. She showed maturity by admitting it was her mistake.

I'm currently in the process of selecting student teams to lead groups of their peers on 2-week overseas trips. One of the teams has been impossible to connect with to set up an interview, and they haven't responded to 3 emails. I'm disinclined to pursue them any further. If they were to be selected, I don't want to spend the next year trying to get them to respond to my emails. It's a selective process: thanks for making my selection easier!​
 

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