Stumped. Photos included. Feather cyst or impacted preen gland ?

[Mt Hood Hens]

Hey all.
Well, this one is definitely for the well experienced poultry person.
We were looking at the hens lice situation when we came across this. There are 3(that we have found so far) very obvious lumps, very firm feeling. One of them had a crusty brown scab on it, so I carefully picked it off with the tips of sanitized scissors. A lot of dark sawdust looking stuff came out as well as what looked like little pieces of grit. Not much blood at all. I flushed it out with Vetericyn but there still seemed to be solids inside. The other two cysts appear to contain something white underneath. It's fairly easy to tell since the skin is so stretched thin.
Since our plan was to bathing them and dust for lice(after they dried off), we held off since we weren't sure if a bath would be good for the open wound. So, we went ahead and dusted them without bathing them. The thought of little lice getting into the wound was just not appealing.
So, now what... I am prepared to use a fresh razor blade/bactine for numbing/Oxine solution for serious disinfecting/Vetericyn for follow up..... for surgery to open up the cyst and clean it out. I'm already scheduled to drop off a poop sample to the vet tomorrow, so I was thinking I could also drop off a bit of what's inside the cyst as well.......
All the googling has led to very little information, other than it seems obvious that the other two cysts could burst. Considering that the one already did, and the hen didn't die, leads me to consider waiting for the cysts to take their natural course? I have no idea.



The top photo shows the location of the wound, at the base of the spine by the tail.
The second and third are just closer up shots of the wound. The scab has been removed and one of the other lumps can be clearly seen next to the wound.
Thanks to anyone who might have some insight.

 

[Mt Hood Hens]

Update:
Did "surgery" and sent sample of the cyst- solidified stuff to the vet, along with the poop sample. It will be interesting to see of there are answers.

 

[chooks4life]

Sorry, no clue, just offering support and keen to learn myself what it is.

Cysts are one of those things, they can be caused by a wide array of factors and you never know till you open them... And even then you might not know either. I've de-scabbed some and disinfected them as you did, but nowadays I just use Stockholm tar, they just vanish without me digging into them.

 

[SobbaChickens]

I'm sorry no one was able to reply to your post. I have no advice either, just support

I'm interested in what the tests will say as well, keep us updated!

Katie

 

[Mt Hood Hens]

Hey there,
I figured this might be one of those things that might not have an answer, but thanks for your responses

The vet said that the poop sample was totally free of any parasites, (protozoa, cocsidia, tapeworm, etc..) and the sample of the inside of the cyst looked like necrotic tissue with no active infection. She thought it looked like it had been there for a while. So, ultimately, probably didn't need to get it all out of there asap, but who would have known. She left a message with the info, and I left one back asking what the next step would be to diagnose the respiratory issue once and for all. I was scheduled to drop off the poop sample in the first place to rule out parasites(especially the horrible sounding gape worm).

The cyst area is pretty swollen looking. Yesterday, she ended up picking at it and opened it up even more because there was about 1.5 Tablespoons of blood under the perch she was on. Strangely, the other birds wanted to eat the red/blood pine shavings, so I had to clear them pronto. Because of the respiratory issues, I've been "humidifying" the 3 hens overnight using a cool mist humidifier with an Oxine solution.(6.5z Oxine to 1 gal h2o). I don't see any change at all. This will be the 3rd night of 5 that I plan on doing. At least it's a powerful disinfectant and will hopefully keep "germs" from getting into the incision, plus I've been washing it down with Vetericyn.
I'll try to get a good photo of the area tomorrow.

 

[chooks4life]

Depending on the overnight temperatures, I wouldn't add any moisture to their air, even if it's got antibiotics in it, but then again I've never humidified chooks. If they're under the weather enough to get a lung infection I personally wouldn't add moisture to the situation, but I'm sure people have succeeded with that method before... Raw garlic, given regularly, means they will literally never get any lung infections or internal/external parasite burdens. Turkeys get TB even with garlic though. The problem with man-made antibiotics, apart from their usual side effects including liver damage, is they kill both bad and good/necessary 'germs', and the really bad ones, if present, i.e. staph, grow back faster than the good ones; if you don't have staph present, or anything flesh-eating like that, there's probably no need to use such disinfectants, rather just let the bird heal on its own. Disinfecting through diet's easy and nips the majority of problems in the bud. It's far better to use natural antibiotics like raw garlic, because that's able to cover a huge spectrum of viruses, bacteria and germs without compromising the bird's natural healing systems and thereby potentially making it vulnerable to serious attacks.

About the cyst, anything dry and sawdusty rather than wet and pus-like would usually indicate an absence of active infection, since pus is mainly comprised of white blood cells that are present due to infection. I think the dark sawdust stuff is more likely to be old blood/bloody pus that the body successfully disinfected but didn't manage to resorb, possibly because the inner walls of the cyst healed shut against that. The vet would probably know.

The chooks wanted to eat the reddened shavings because they're omnivores and are partial to red meat as well as insects, rodents, snakes, fish, etc... If they went bananas over the reddened shavings there's every chance they'll attack your bleeding hen, if they haven't already. If their protein needs are fully met they won't go nuts over blood, so regardless of what the 'complete feed' packet insists, it's obviously not giving your birds all they need. Blood, red meat etc all carry more nutrients than just the standard components of the material flesh is, even herbivores in need consume meat. (Like a cow eating an afterbirth or desperate feedlotted cattle consuming the corpses of poultry and other cattle, etc). Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Strange about the gritty/solids in the cysts though, maybe the sawdusty stuff was the old results of the birds or the hen herself trying to peck out the grit whenever it first got in there? Someone could have mown a gravelly lawn area near her cage, or she could have gotten trod on/rolled in sharp gravel at some point... I don't know. Strange though.

 

[Mt Hood Hens]

Hey there,
I'll try to remember all the info the vet gave us. And, as much as I hope she knows exactly what's happening, I realize everyone has their very own well founded opinion, and her advice left us wondering "how can there be such differing opinion...."?
1.It was in fact an infected preen gland(in the photos above). There are two lobes and can be the size of peanut M&M's. One side had ruptured, hence the initial scabby opening. The preen gland products waxy stuff, amongst other things, and at times can product too much or get infected and burst. If it ever happens again, soak her in somehting that cuts grease(she thought Dawn worked fine), and let what ever wants to drain out, drain out. Flush with water and let it be. Hens can be prone to having overproductive preen glands, so ours might have this again someday. The incision I made is going to heal fine and she stressed that I really should call them first before doing any cutting......agreed What I did was totally unnecessary and could have introduced more bacteria and whatever else. In addition, I might have even caused permanent damage to the preen gland and it might not heal properly, resulting in constant back up.
2.The hen does have bronchitis. The rails are pretty bad and will have to heal on their own since they're viral. I told her all the meds/treatments I'd tried, and she outright said that Tylan was "nasty stuff" and can cause damage to their tracheas.
3.There was an abnormally high level of some bacteria(lepticoccis...lepti-something) in the hen but that wasn't a horrible problem since it's out in nature and if they drink out of puddles at all, they're going to have some. However, I know they drink from the downspout in their yard, so I'm doing to redirect that water elsewhere just as a precaution.
4.She's not a fan of reintroducing a new hen(I'm still supposed to receive a replacement hen for the one that already died), due to the social dynamics, but since there has been so much transition, sickness, death, separation of the hens at night.... all within a month...now might be the best time to get the replacement while they're still working out the pecking order. As far as contagiousness goes, she's more worried that a new hen would bring in something new. Since the new hen will likely be a relative of the current hens, and will come from the same guy, same system....it's unlikely it will have anything new that would be life threatening. But, we're on the fence about it. Seems a little crazy for several reasons.
5.In all the discussion, we forgot to discuss the Oxine! But, I'm discontinuing it anyway, since it did not help.
6.The hen was prescribed 62.5mg of Clavamox, 2x per day, for 7 days. The vet felt this would ward off secondary infections in the lungs and trachea, and possibly keep my "surgery sight" healing without complication, and knock out a little of the Lepti-? bacteria. She's against blanket treatment of the other 2 hens, so just the one will be getting meds.
7.The hen was there for observation and testing from 9am-4:30pm. The total cost was $168.36. This included the 2 fecal tests, general exam, throat swabbing test culture(or whatever they do to see about germs), the take home antibiotics for 7 days, cyst-surgery sight exam, and food for the day, and a little take home.

Wow. All I can say is that I do feel so much better knowing that she'll be just fine, and she doesn't have gapeworm Somewhere along the way, these ladies have become more than just egg layers. I might not have the money for vet visits like that, in the future, but the vet was adamant about giving her a call with ANY question, and she'd do her best to resolve it over the phone, no charge. So, I like having her available, and if paying a little money one time helps "cut costs" in the future, I'm all for it. Also, we realize that education can be very expensive, but the knowledge will last for years and make us better chicken people for the future. Maybe I'm just rationalizing the $$ spent Being a newbie, and having no intuition yet about things, is a difficult place to be.
I really appreciate this forum even more because in addition to hearing the opinion of a vet, I sincerely respect the opinion of the experienced Thanks so much.... I'm sure there will be more to come......

 

[pawprint2104]

Thanks for sharing your vet's info. I'm glad your girl is on the road to recovery. I've never seen this condition in my hens and didn't even know preen glands could get impacted.

You mentioned Tylan. What is it? Nevermind. I just "googled" it. Appears to be an antibiotic to treat colitis and chronic diarrhea.

Your vet sounds like a great caregiver.

 

[Mt Hood Hens]

Quote:
I've been feeding about 1T per hen, per day for about a month. It hasn't cured them of anything, but they may have been too sick at that point. How much do you give, approx, to each hen?




Quote: Forgot to mention the vet's opinion on this She thought what I am feeding them is fine, and that hens can eat irrationally. Don't read too much into an occasional odd food choices. She said she's removed all types of eaten items from a bird. They can eat well beyond what they should and can actually gain weight and have egg-production slowness. When given the choice, they'll always go for "candy" items(meaning, not necessarily nutritionally balanced). Maybe they thought the red shavings looked like candy...who knows. She said sometimes one hen will eat way more than they should, leaving less food for the others. The underfed hens are more likely to eat the crazy items. She told me to keep an eye on any hen that looks like it's being extra piggy, since that could also be a sign of parasites and other issues. Since we currently only have 3 hens, that's easy to do. Don't know how it works with lots of hens