Sumatra Thread!

[tjb3344]

There are. I am in my mid 20's, my mom (infinityheart) is in her 40's. I am just watching the thread and haven't posted yet like so many of the other folks

I was wondering. Also wondering where Stoney is. He is why I joined BYC and why I bought Sumatra's. I have 12 of his birds and have been to his farm. It is something to behold. There must be 100 Sumatra's free ranging. Stoney has at least 6 breeding pens as well. Interesting guy who knows Sumatra's extremely well. A wealth of knowledge on his Sumatra's. I learned more in 1 hour on his farm than I did in 10 years of going to shows. I fathom it is best to just look up his business card and give him a call.
TJB

 

[NYREDS]

Well I am not really correcting anybody, I am going on my opinion, based on how the standard is written. Thats why I said that they should rewrite it, if that is what you judges are looking for, the picture of Champion Sumatras tail is well spread, if you were to lift it up to a 45 degree angle then it would be the same as a Leghorn, its just because it is carried at 15 degrees. Here is an example of her bird and a leghorn. To me, looks well spread. so why do we follow a standard and pay money for it as breeders, when that is not what the judges are looking for then? I just want to understand, the logic of it all.

Judges go througha minimum 2 year apprenticship, then take both a written & showroom exam. This is not to say no judge ever makes a mistake, I'm sure I sometimes do. However, you might consider, just consider, the possibility that you may be misinterpreting the Standard rather than "us judges" doing so.

 

[Infnityhrt]

Judges go througha minimum 2 year apprenticship, then take both a written & showroom exam. This is not to say no judge ever makes a mistake, I'm sure I sometimes do. However, you might consider, just consider, the possibility that you may be misinterpreting the Standard rather than "us judges" doing so.

True, maybe I am, I do think its all based on individual interpretation and I understand that, I am lucky that we have always had pretty good luck at poultry shows, but I have shown dogs, goats, horses my whole life, and I don't get upset if I don't place well, I know that its one persons opinion. I have shown birds for a few years, mostly with the kids, then we took a few years break and now getting back into it, I have, with the same bird, at a double show taken Ch AOSB under one judge and then under the other placed 2nd in hens under the other. I have also had a judge place a hen, that I didn't mean to take because she had pink bottoms and was in our laying flock but had somehow gotten into the show bird pen, and I grabbed her and didn't realize it till I got to the show then thought oh well, not going to do well and she ended up taking Best of Breed, so I guess you never know. But I do think that it should be more specific, as in the tails.. why would it say well spread under the Leghorns, but not the Sumatras if that is what they are suppose to have? and I see the tails getting thicker and heavier on the males, and the backs getting shorter, but that is not really what it says either, it says long and flowing, but not really thick and flowing. and it does say long back The birds are changing from what they were, and it doesn't make sense, then we lose what makes a Sumatra a Sumatra, I see birds getting heavier and heavier and not just in the Sumatra, The Sumatra is not a huge bird, weights on cocks are 5 lbs, but I have seen 7lbs or more, In the standard it does say to take off points for that, so that is why I started questioning more, Its kind of like the AKC for dogs.. when they wanted to accept Border Collies there was an uproar and many breeders still refuse to register a dog in AKC because people would begin breeding dogs for a certain look, not what the dog was bred for and it would ruin the breed. I use to show and breed Quarter Horses, back when one horse did it all, you could show in Halter, then race and ride, jump the same horse, conformation was based on balance and symmetry, straight legs and soundness. Now days it is very rare to have a QH that shows well in halter be able to ride, they are so heavy and on little stick feet they don't stay sound, now it there are 4 types of Quarter Horses in one breed, so maybe that is why I am more passionate about change or wanting lack of it just for beauties sake. Sorry, got on a ramble again. Different opinions are the spice of life, guess it would be pretty boring if we all thought the same and were like robots

 

[FlCountryGirl]

True, maybe I am, I do think its all based on individual interpretation and I understand that, I am lucky that we have always had pretty good luck at poultry shows, but I have shown dogs, goats, horses my whole life, and I don't get upset if I don't place well, I know that its one persons opinion. I have shown birds for a few years, mostly with the kids, then we took a few years break and now getting back into it, I have, with the same bird, at a double show taken Ch AOSB under one judge and then under the other placed 2nd in hens under the other. I have also had a judge place a hen, that I didn't mean to take because she had pink bottoms and was in our laying flock but had somehow gotten into the show bird pen, and I grabbed her and didn't realize it till I got to the show then thought oh well, not going to do well and she ended up taking Best of Breed, so I guess you never know. But I do think that it should be more specific, as in the tails.. why would it say well spread under the Leghorns, but not the Sumatras if that is what they are suppose to have? and I see the tails getting thicker and heavier on the males, and the backs getting shorter, but that is not really what it says either, it says long and flowing, but not really thick and flowing. and it does say long back The birds are changing from what they were, and it doesn't make sense, then we lose what makes a Sumatra a Sumatra, I see birds getting heavier and heavier and not just in the Sumatra, The Sumatra is not a huge bird, weights on cocks are 5 lbs, but I have seen 7lbs or more, In the standard it does say to take off points for that, so that is why I started questioning more, Its kind of like the AKC for dogs.. when they wanted to accept Border Collies there was an uproar and many breeders still refuse to register a dog in AKC because people would begin breeding dogs for a certain look, not what the dog was bred for and it would ruin the breed. I use to show and breed Quarter Horses, back when one horse did it all, you could show in Halter, then race and ride, jump the same horse, conformation was based on balance and symmetry, straight legs and soundness. Now days it is very rare to have a QH that shows well in halter be able to ride, they are so heavy and on little stick feet they don't stay sound, now it there are 4 types of Quarter Horses in one breed, so maybe that is why I am more passionate about change or wanting lack of it just for beauties sake. Sorry, got on a ramble again. Different opinions are the spice of life, guess it would be pretty boring if we all thought the same and were like robots

I agree with you Infinity. Not all judges make mistakes when it comes to the standards but more often then not they judge by their preference. I show dogs too and what is originally in the standard is not being placed as it should be. (Especially rottweilers with tails that fit the conformation or cavalier's who are the right size vs. the monster mutters in the ring.) The same happens in every show world whether it be dog, horse, goat or chicken.

 

[NYREDS]

All you people who are so critical of judges [of whatever type] should become judges & save your hobbies from those of us who are incompetent to interpret the Standard properly. since "more often than not" we judge based only on our preferences & not the Standard clearly we need to be replaced.
The example of a bird placing differently in each half of a double show does sound like a condemnation of judges; to someone who has never judged, A bird in a show has at most a minute or 2 to make it's case to the judge & there are many things that can interfere. The bird may be tired, hungry, thirsty, about to lay an egg or take a dump, or simply distracted by something & as a result it doesn't show for the judge. I recall one show on a very hot day-I was judging the Featherleg Bantam Class; there was a Mottled Cochin Pullet I really liked the looks of but she was too hot & wouldn't show. She was panting, her wings were spread out & she wouldn't stand up. She was probably better than the Silkie who won the class but since I couldn't get her to show I couldn't be sure. Another example was a Black Rosecomb pullet of mine. At home she was one of the nicest Rosecombs I ever saw but she had stage-fright or something. I entered her 3 times & all 3 times she held her tail clamped so tightly together she looked like a rose combed Modern Game. Never could get her to show so how could I expect a judge to place her.
Judging looks real easy, especially through the lens of "why didn't my bird win", but it's not all that easy. That's why I always say to critics-become a judge-show us how it should be done.

 

[Infnityhrt]

NY Reds, you are totally taking this as if I am angry, I am NOT! I am not upset with all judges, if that is what you are thinking. I am just saying my point of view, everyone has one. Its the people that take everything the wrong way, and true, if your not with someone face to face, its hard to interpret through writing the inflections of voice, I am passionate, I have learned that you have to find out what a particular judge is looking for a use what works for that. With horses, its like some like a nice headset, or a slower jog, or for someone to stay on the rail and not have to pass.. its how you learn what judges are looking for and use it, if your going to show in the show world, is it right? Guess its something each one of us, has to decide what we want to do. My whole thing is that the standard, should be in place to preserve a breed, otherwise, rewrite it as you change the breed. Change the weights, I have a Faverolle that is from a very good breeder who is 3lbs over the standard and he is still young he will probably be 4lbs over by the time he's done growing and he's what you see winning.. It starts to seem in large fowl, bigger is better, but that is what the standard says, those are the things I don't understand. I totally understand about birds not showing well if it's hot or their to excited or not excited. I understand that. I know some judges don't like Double show for that reason, I was just pointing out that it is preference and yes maybe the bird might be showing different in the morning than the afternoon, I am not upset by it. I was just meaning that everyone has different preferences, and that is fine,

 

[redandalusian]

NYReds. I know that in the past few years the white faced black spanish that I have either seen in the poultry press or have won best medditeranean at the shows here in arizona are way to small. Some of the judges are picking spanish that are so small that they should be disqualified. What is your take on this? Do you see it a lot when you judge?

 

[ramirezframing]

FMP, was it you that said you was going to a show in OH to see how you stacked up to the east coast sumatras? If so, was it this Sumatra Nationals that someone mentioned a few post back?

 

[championsumatra]

I am all ways asking the judges what he did or didn't like about each of my birds that is how I learn and do better. I am very lucky that I do very well with my homebred sumatras.

 

[NYREDS]

NYReds. I know that in the past few years the white faced black spanish that I have either seen in the poultry press or have won best medditeranean at the shows here in arizona are way to small. Some of the judges are picking spanish that are so small that they should be disqualified. What is your take on this? Do you see it a lot when you judge?

I don't think I've seen a White Faced Black Spanish in the last 10 years. Not many of them here in the East. That said, I share a general concern about size. I do, often, see birds that are either too large or too small. I've heard many people say we should go back to weighing every bird in a show as was once done. If we did that a large percentage of birds would be disqualified.
I have disqualified birds for weight when the varience was so great I didn't need a scale, but probably haven't done this as much as I should have. I know a judge who will not judge the Old English Game Bantam Class because he says if he did he'd D/Q most of the birds & would probably get killed by the exhibitors.