Summer scratch

[Chris09]

I have to slightly disagree.

First thing to do would be to tell us the name of the book.

Second thing would be to throw it in the trash.

True, so very true.

Chris

 

[Kikiriki]

The percentages of starch and protein is what is in corn and oats that are used as feed. The chart was just a handy one because it compared them side by side, which is why I said to ignore the digestion part...evidently, I just should have cut it since it is causing confusion. The point is how high corn starch is compared to oats while the opposite is true of protein. There is a reason you can buy a box of cornstarch, and a bottle of corn syrup!

Here in florida it was easy to see the effect of corn on the horses and cattle in summer. They got heavy, slow, did not handle handle heat well. It was only provided for winter feed. Now the science supports what southern animal owners have known for ages: corn is high energy food used either to fatten or provide extra energy for warmth.

A little corn scratch if they want it, but my girls are already bypassing the corn and only eating the millet in the scratch. I am actually taking them off starter/grower because it has too high a percentage of corn and they are not handling our high 80's to low 90's temps well at all. They should not be having so much trouble with the heat.

I got two types of wild bird food at Ace Hardware: songbird has more sunflower with nuts and fruits, plus wheat. The other is mostly different millets. We have bugs and plants for forage, plus the grass and weeds going to seed. (32 pounds for $21 total)

I gave them a sample just now, and they loved it. A little confused by the sunflowers in shells, but they'll figure it out! It also has them shelled.

 

[A.T. Hagan]

None of which has anything to do with what the OP was concerned with, but it does illustrate the point I made in my first post.

Corn does not raise the body temperature of chickens or any other animal.

But it may well make them fat if you feed too much of it and fat animals don't cope with the heat as well as leaner animals. So naturally one should feed less of it when the weather turns hot.

 

[Chris09]

The percentages of starch and protein is what is in corn and oats that are used as feed. The chart was just a handy one because it compared them side by side, which is why I said to ignore the digestion part...evidently, I just should have cut it since it is causing confusion. The point is how high corn starch is compared to oats while the opposite is true of protein. There is a reason you can buy a box of cornstarch, and a bottle of corn syrup!
Here in florida it was easy to see the effect of corn on the horses and cattle in summer. They got heavy, slow, did not handle handle heat well. It was only provided for winter feed. Now the science supports what southern animal owners have known for ages: corn is high energy food used either to fatten or provide extra energy for warmth.
A little corn scratch if they want it, but my girls are already bypassing the corn and only eating the millet in the scratch. I am actually taking them off starter/grower because it has too high a percentage of corn and they are not handling our high 80's to low 90's temps well at all. They should not be having so much trouble with the heat.
I got two types of wild bird food at Ace Hardware: songbird has more sunflower with nuts and fruits, plus wheat. The other is mostly different millets. We have bugs and plants for forage, plus the grass and weeds going to seed. (32 pounds for $21 total)
I gave them a sample just now, and they loved it. A little confused by the sunflowers in shells, but they'll figure it out! It also has them shelled.

Cattle and Horses are different than chickens they have a different digestive system and have different nutritional needs. Poultry have the ability to proses high amounts of grain.
If corn made chickens "over heat" don't you think that every chicken on poultry feed would be over heating since most poultry feed contain up to 70% corn.

I don't see where temps 80 to 90 would bother chickens on a Starter/Grower. Shoot it's 87 degrees here and my birds are just fine eating a feed that in nearly 60% corn.

Chris

 

[Kikiriki]

Michigan State University Ag School Extension says it's a myth too, but still, it persists like a cat with nine lives.

http://www.extension.org/pages/33855/is-corn-a-hot-feed

It is not a myth. The article makes some assumptions and draws false conclusions.

The article itself states that corn is a higher calorie food. Summer calorie needs are lower than winter. I could not find any science on poultry seasonal calorie use, probably because chicken factories maintain the environment.  I did find an organic chicken farmer who raises about 300 chickens in pasture mobile pens.  That person mentioned as an aside (in a discussion on cost vs profit) the fact that cold increases feed consumption.  Another place noted that in winter feed should never be allowed to run out to keep egg production going... Apparently not a concern in summer.

So now we have established there is a seasonal calorie difference, and corn is a higher calorie food.

We also know extra calories consumed but not used by the body immediately get stored as fat. Fat animals cannot tolerate heat as well, and will sweat more if they can sweat.  (People and horses being a good example.) Why? Because fat helps insulate the body in winter and provides a store of extra energy for when food is naturally harder to find. Think bears, seals, whales, squirrels: they all put on winter fat at end of summer or keep a layer of fat for living in the cold ocean. Wild land mamels tend to burn off fat through the winter, and enter spring lean and hungry.

So can we agree fat accumulation is an evolved mechanism for survival especially through cold. (a small percentage of fat is required for normal function as evidenced by women atheletes who have too low a measure of body fat to have normal menstrual cycles).

Livestock producers use corn as a finisher to add a layer of fat. Fat is not good for chickens as it causes more health problems than just heat intolerance. Prolapse and major organ damage are common to fat chickens.

So we can see chickens are not intended to be fat, and the fat is added to meat birds and other animals in the last weeks of life for marketing and higher weight at sale.

The article is written from the perspective that assumes a change in feed (sweet feed to oats for horses) rather than maintaining a consistent feed throughout the year as is the case with manufactured poultry feeds.  

Purina (for all their poultry feeds ) only tells nutrional values, not ingredients by percentage.  An austrailian government site stated starter and grower feeds were 1/2 corn, but it might or might not be true for US/Canadian poultry feed.  As long as manufacturers meet the nutrition that is listed, they can use whatever mixture is cheapest.

So we can say that corn is very likely a major part of manufactured feeds, and then we are talking about adding more corn in scratch.

Since pellets and crumbles are manufactured, you can only cut calories by reducing total feed, but you can only cut so much before you start cutting nutrition.  Thus you have change out high calorie foods for lower calorie foods to maintain nutrient and protein needs while cutting calories. If you do not want to change feed entirely, the place to cut it is in the scratch because this will not harm nutrtional balance.
 
The article talks about myth of a hot feed in a very specific way.  It was a very subtle manipulation, in fact. It presented a single factor, not all factors: it presents the "heat" as body heat generated by oat fiber while completely ignoring the effect of fattening from high starch/sugar diet while maintaining nutritional requirements.  That generated heat can be minimized by when you feed: morning and late afternoon are typically cooler than midday. Fat makes the body less able to handle the higher midday heat.

Horse people do tend to measure by scoops, but they also know calories need to be cut when winter is over without cutting nutrition, which is why they switch to oats. Farmers and horse people typically present grain feeds in morning and/or evening and allow grazing or hay the rest of the day. They are not as simple minded as the article insinuates and they do adjust feed as they monitor their animals weight.

People have been watching their animals since before recorded history and passing down those observations: wisdom. As science advanced wisdom was labeled myths or old wives tales and discounted, but consider the multitude of times science ends up supporting the validity of old practices, like bad plants, good plants, and medicinal plants. In fact, part of they way pharma finds new drugs now is by using tribal knowledge in South America.  

The corn lobby is also trying to say there is no difference in sugars: sugar is sugar.  This is just flat out untrue.  Sugars are molecularly different and those molecules are handled differently by the body...some pass through and some are very easily utilized or converted to fat.  So I am not at all surprised to see a pro corn article again trying to discount what is true and understood by those who have spent years raising animals (even if they do not know what makes it true).

It has unfortunately become necessary to be a very discerning reader, and to look at more information than what is offered in a single article.  Bias in science is real, and getting ahead in ones field can depend on having the correct biases. It is also becoming more pervasive as big money controls more of the research and published research through government connections, schools, grants, and publications.
 

 

[speckledhen]

Well, all that aside, chickens shouldn't eat a big percentage of scratch anyway to knock out a portion of their layer feed.
You solve your perceived scratch issue by feeding a higher quality scratch year round, as I do, by using one like KnockOut Game Bird Feed, which is 12% protein, and has 11 grains in it.

This is what I use as scratch, day in, day out, year round:

 

[Chris09]

Kikiriki

Your either forgetting or you just don't know that your standard chickens eat to fill there energy needs. When you feed a high energy feed (like corn) there feed intake goes down now on the other hand if you feed a lower energy feed (like oats) there feed intake goes up.

Chickens eat no more than there energy needs.

Now when you feed a high energy feed you also have to feed more protein since the bird is taking in less feed. If you feed a low energy diet you have to lower the proteins since the bird is now taking in more feed to meet its energy needs. If you feed a low energy feed you will get unhealthy fat chickens quicker that you will feeding a high energy feed just because they eat more food on a low energy diet.


Chris

 

[Achickenwrangler#1]

I notice my chickens eat all day, animals graze all day, myth or folklore, I'll stick with it. Now, scientifically the very act of digestion as in Krebs cycle produces energy/heat on the molecular levels it a fact. The higher the calorie the more energy/heat is actually produced by the physical digestion of the starch so bottom line yes, corn, high in starch will raise the metobolic temp of the animal simply through digestion of that carb

 

[Chris09]

Also keep in mind that it takes 1 calorie to raise 1 gram of water by 1 deg celsius or 3782.96037 calories to raise one (1) gallon of water 1 deg celsius.[FONT=arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Chris[/FONT]

 

[Kikiriki]

Chris09

Did you notice notice where I mentioned nutritional requirements? If you eat alot of a food that does not meet nutritional requirements, and fill up on that food, you will get full and will get calories without getting the other nutrients your body needs. Think of eating potato chips and candy instead of a portion of meat and green vegetables. Corn has some protein, some vitamins, yes, but it has less than other feed components and has high starch calories. If, as you say, the chicken eats to meet caloric needs then stops eating, feeding high corn percentage will induce the feeling of being full before nutritional needs are fully met...ie low protein or vitamins and mineral intake.

But perhaps, chris, don't know or have fogotten that almost all animals (including chickens) do not stop eating when they meet their needs because when we evolved survival depended upon finding and eating everything possible while it was available and building up a winter storehouse of energy in fat. Chickens can and do overeat and can and do get fat.

I fed my chickens their vitamin fortified bird seed this morning with dried mealworms for added protein. They were happy to eat it. Later when it cools off I'll take them out for greens and fresh bugs. It is hotter today than it was yeasterday and they are not panting. Only change was their feed. No corn today, and also no oats in that mix... They eat heartily in the morning and only nibble during the midday heat.

I think we have reached a point we we can happily agree to disagree. I think corn should be reserved for winter and you do not. We both have reasons for our opinions and can support them. It is up to each of us to decide what to do.

Best,

Kikiriki