Sweet PDZ vs DE

[AmyJane725]

I've heard both of these mentioned tons of times, and they're clearly very highly regarded and useful.

They've started blurring together in my mind though. This is my current understanding:

Sweet PDZ soaks up ammonia and moisture (I can get a 25 lb bag for $10)

DE soaks up moisture and is antimicrobial (I can get a 25 lb bag for $35)

Do I need both, or is just Sweet PDZ fine?

And kind of along this line, I'm looking into providing a dust bath for my chickens.
What do ya'll make your dust baths out of, and do you keep them outside? How do you keep them from getting all wet? (Stupid question, but I honestly wonder. Do you have to put it inside to keep it dry and then bring it out for them, or do you have it inside your coop? Or is it under a covered area of some sort? And how big is it square footage wise?)

My neighbor has a wood stove, so I've been contemplating asking him for the ashes to use in the bath, along with some DE perhaps? Any kind of wood ash is fine right? As long as the wood wasn't treated? I know you're not supposed to use cedar wood for stuff because the fumes make them sick, but cedar ashes are chemically identical to any other ashes, right? It should all just be carbon at that point, right?

 

[Fishkeeper]

DE is a very fine dust that's primarily used as an invertebrate killer, as it scrapes their outer layer up and causes them to die of dehydration. It is not recommended for use around birds, especially not in large amounts, because its fine, sharp-edged grains can seriously damage the lungs. It's a health risk for humans, and birds are much worse than we are at clearing contaminants from the lungs.

Dust baths can just be a tray of dusty dirt or sand. If you have access to wood ash (and I don't think it matters what kind), a couple handfuls of that will help to suffocate any mites clinging to your birds. You want it to be big enough to hold at least one bird at a time with some room for them to sprawl, preferably with room enough for at least 2. Anywhere it stays dry is fine. Some people build them under a little roof, some put them in the coop, some under the coop. Your dust bath can be made of anything, as long as it holds at least a couple inches of dust. A cat litter box with a cover might work if they'll go in it, but they might try to nest in it instead.

 

[AmyJane725]

DE is a very fine dust that's primarily used as an invertebrate killer, as it scrapes their outer layer up and causes them to die of dehydration. It is not recommended for use around birds

Ok, I'm not disagreeing with you that breathing stuff in is dangerous for chickens (and basically all animals) but I'm very confused now. People on this site talk all the time about using DE in their coop litter to keep it cleaner. What gives?

 

[DobieLover]

Ok, I'm not disagreeing with you that breathing stuff in is dangerous for chickens (and basically all animals) but I'm very confused now. People on this site talk all the time about using DE in their coop litter to keep it cleaner. What gives?

Some people talk about it all the time simply because they are misinformed or didn't do what you are doing and really look into it and ask questions. A lot of people think DE can treat lice and mites because of the properties @Fishkeeper mentioned. It can't.
Yes, DE is a fine desiccant. I used it in the lab to dry chemical solutions all the time.

 

[Shadrach]

What @DobieLover wrote.

 

[AmyJane725]

Some people talk about it all the time simply because they are misinformed or didn't do what you are doing and really look into it and ask questions. A lot of people think DE can treat lice and mites because of the properties @Fishkeeper mentioned. It can't.
Yes, DE is a fine desiccant. I used it in the lab to dry chemical solutions all the time.

#1: That's cool. Mad respect for lab workers/scientists.

#2: So, if I'm reading you correctly, I should never let my birds anywhere near DE because it causes respiratory problems.

#3: Sweet PDZ should be ok though, as long is it is the granular stuff, not the powder?

 

[aart]

DE is best kept from becoming airborne.
The only real use I've found for it is to kill grain mites in bags of feed in the summer.

PDZ works great on poop boards for absorbing ammonia and keeping poops from sticking to board, granular is best but it can still be dusty so I use a thin layer and am cautious when sifting.

Dust baths...my birds make their own and I rarely add anything to them.
Am lucky that part of my run is under the coop and stays dry and thus thawed all year round.

Check your birds regularly for bugs and treat with permethrin if you find some.
Here's my notes for that:
Have you checked them over real well for mites and/or lice?

Google images of lice/mites and their eggs before the inspection so you'll know what you're looking for.

Part the feathers right down to the skin around vent, head/neck and under wings.

Best done well after dark with a strong flashlight/headlight, easier to 'catch' bird and also to check for the mites that live in structure and only come out at night to feed off roosting birds.

Wipe a white paper towel along the underside of roost to look for red smears(smashed well fed mites).

 

[AmyJane725]

Best done well after dark with a strong flashlight/headlight, easier to 'catch' bird and also to check for the mites that live in structure and only come out at night to feed off roosting birds.

They actually crawl off the birds and hide during the day? How insidious.
Are they just out in nature and will be attracted to the coop/birds once I get them? Or will they only be around if I'm sent infested chicks? This is stupid. I know nature is basically filthy and all the wild birds probably have them and will deposit them, but it never hurts to hope, right?

 

[staceyj]

My opinion.

Chicken keeping is dirty and dusty. It takes work to keep them and their surroundings clean and healthy.

*i wear a mask most times I’m working in my coop. I know I SHOULD 100% of the time. I need to be better about this.

Chickens produce dust.
Chicken bedding of every type that I can think of produces dust.
Oh good gosh can a batch of baby chicks raised in a brooder produce dust or what?!

Dust is one very efficient way avian diseases are spread not only from one member of your flock to another but also from wild birds to your flock and then to a different flock down the road.

I don’t use DE.
I tried it for numerous garden-pest related things back when I was starting out gardening and cannot report one proven success.

I read a lot and talked to a LOT of very experienced chicken keepers and the master gardeners at my local extension office about it when I got started with chickens.

I’m a doubter by nature. I need proof.
Anything that’s supposed to treat, cure or prevent as many things as some people claim DE treats, cures and prevents but that lacks substantial scientific PROOF, I’m not falling for.

It’s silica. Microscopically jagged. Silica inhalation is linked to lung cancer.
It is a superfine substance, but dense at the same time.
It lingers in the air forever.

I’m all for treating my chickens as naturally as is reasonably possible. I feed them a very healthy diet, keep their environment clean and provide good health care for them on a regular basis BUT, but if they run into trouble I treat it with what is proven by veterinary science
to actually work.

Example: if I have parasites, I’m treating my flock with an parasiticide.
They are scientifically proven to work-if used properly.

IMHO, Parasites are an example of a gateway problem.
If left unchecked:
Then weaken an animal and eventually weaken an entire flock. They open the door for opportunistic secondary infections. Make the animals miserable. Cause anemia. Slow them down. Make animals more vulnerable to predators.
Cause death either directly or indirectly.


On the other hand FWIW, I like granulated PDZ. A bag last me a long time.
It’s like a super fine kitty litter. The texture is similar to cornmeal.

It produces minimal dust and settles fast, doesn’t seem to linger in the air.
I use it sparingly in my coop.
Sprinkled on the poop boards, it keeps poop from sticking.
It makes cleaning very easy.
It neutralizes ammonia and absorbs moisture if you get caught on a rainy day and can’t get out there to do a regular cleaning of your coop. Just a couple of handfuls absorbs ammonia in just a few minutes. It can be disposed of in your garden or compost pile.

As far as a dust bath is concerned, I tried everything. If I had an enormous covered run I’d put one the size of a little kids sandbox in there for them.

My covered run isn’t that large though and my birds freerange at last half of each day in a very large (uncovered) run. I live in a suburban area and don’t want to attract the neighborhood cats to my yard with what could essentially become a giant litter box.

I live in an area that has naturally sandy soil. My girls much prefer “dust bathing” in certain areas of the yard that they’ve designated as prime dust bathing real estate. They love the area under certain bushes.
I don’t fight it anymore.
They are very happy.

 

[aart]

They actually crawl off the birds and hide during the day? How insidious.
Are they just out in nature and will be attracted to the coop/birds once I get them? Or will they only be around if I'm sent infested chicks?

Red Roost mites do not live on the birds, only feed on them.
Northern Fowl mites live on the birds, as do lice.
Here's a nice post about the different kinds:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/my-chicken-has-mites-now-what.1273674/page-2#post-20483008

Mites and lice can be carried in by wild birds...and rodents...so best to keep those out of your coop and run.