The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[cjwaldon]

It seems to be a recessive trait, in which case it's going to be difficult to eliminate.

 

[misfitmorgan]

It seems to be a recessive trait, in which case it's going to be difficult to eliminate.

i hate chasing recessive traits

you can go 2 generations and get all happy..you got rid of the pesky thing and then bam there it pops back up again.

 

[cjwaldon]

My 14 year old daughter is a 4Her - Intermediate Chicken Showmanship Champion Reserve last year, and Intermediate Chicken Showmanship Champion the year before. She really loves chickens, studies her Standards of Perfection book, and really knows a lot about them. She has autism and is particularly focused on her love and knowledge of chickens. She really wanted to try the ayam cemani line. We are very limited to the number of birds she may own in our town and this was the variety she really wanted even though it would not be in the Standards of Perfection book and would therefore have to show as a barnyard variety. (She does also have a Serama and a couple of different variety of chicks from the ranch store to show this year). She really wanted the unusual breed, though. She was the first person to bring a Serama to our fair two years ago.

We tried really hard to do our research before buying eggs, but even after weeks and weeks of reading, there is still a lot of confusion for us. We're aware of the different bloodlines available in the US but had to go the egg route which really seemed to limit us. We ended up buying six eggs from BobFarm on ebay who states that he has Toni Marie chickens. He seemed to have good feedback and we didn't find out until after weeks of researching (and after buying eggs) that feedback can be removed if it discusses anything other than egg condition. My daughter used her saved Christmas money for them, knowing they probably wouldn't have a good hatch rate being mail order eggs (plus we're at high altitude), our first time incubating, etc.

The six eggs arrived in good shape and we incubated them. We put them in on a Friday at 4:00 in the afternoon and 3 weeks later on Saturday morning we woke up early hearing peeping from one that had hatched. Late Saturday night another hatched. No more after that. The other four are still in the incubator for a last day or two, but I doubt any others will hatch at this point.

So she now has two little black chicks and is very happy, but I don't know how to break it to her that these might not actually be pure ayam cemani like she believes. They look like it to us at face value. They are black with black legs, toenails, tongues, skin. They do not have feathers on the legs. So how do we know if we have mutt chicks or not? How do we know if they are a different breed altogether? It seems that BobFarm does not have a very reputable following here, but at the same time, I am having a hard time finding out why exactly. I only find snippets of info about him, and occasionally posters have confused him with another ebay seller. He says his line came from Toni Marie. He claims he keeps and sells both pure and hybrid lines and claims he keeps them separately in pens so he knows which eggs come from which line. The eggs were marked as to the "line" they came from also. Half of ours were marked "A" pens and half were marked "B" pens. One of each hatched and if they are a pullet/cockerel, dd hopes to breed them when the time comes. She won't be able to keep the majority of them if she is successful in that due to our city limitations. We do not want to distribute birds to other families as ayam cemani, if they are not. I am positive that she will have the most knowledge in our area as to this breed so they will rely on what she tells them and we do not want to mislead anyone. We will have a judge at fair in August but he was not extremelly knowledgable about the Seramas two years ago (he is now) and I would think may not have a lot of knowledge about this breed either.

I'm just not sure where we go from here... she still has time that she could try hatching one more clutch of eggs before the 4H deadlines if we acted quick, but honestly, she has sunk the majority of her money into these eggs (and I helped her with half of the costs of them as well as the incubator, etc.) so she really doesn't have the funds to buy another half dozen eggs. And I don't know where we'd even GET the eggs if we did give it another go anyway as while everyone says don't buy eggs on ebay, there's not much guidance as to where you should purchase reputable eggs. I think I'm going to have a broken hearted little girl, but at the same time, I can't allow her to sell or give these away at ayam cemani, if in fact, they are not.

hnsmom, my son has Aspergers, which is a mild form of autism. May I gift your daugher with some AC eggs? My stipulation on accepting this gift is to keep me posted on what hatches and how they mature.

To answer some of your questions, most of the chicks look perfect when hatched, except for toenails or some white on the toes. As they get older the flaws become more apparent. Pink can start showing in the combs as early as two weeks, or it may not start showing until maturity. Feather color leakage again at any age depending on how bad it is, but most will start showing around six weeks. For both pink comb and feather color leakage, the sooner it shows, the worse it's going to be on the adult bird. Even day old chicks with black combs and legs can mature to more green looking combs and legs. Currently I grow all my AC out to between six to twelve weeks, at which time they get sorted for either the grow out pens or "Freezer Camp". Those making the cut might be sold. If kept they will be assessed again before maturity.

 

[cjwaldon]

I said most look perfect when hatced, but I'm talking only about my own breeding experience.

 

[MisfitMarie]

i hate chasing recessive traits

you can go 2 generations and get all happy..you got rid of the pesky thing and then bam there it pops back up again.

I've been researching chicken genetics, and I'm having a hard time following. Does anyone have any resources that would be easy for someone without previous knowledge to understand? I'm not a breeder, but I do want to learn more about it. It is very interesting to me, and who knows, maybe one day I'll have that dream hobby farm and I can start my own projects.

I thought it was interesting, during my reading, how some genes are closely linked together yet manifest in completely different areas.

I found this article: http://www.extension.org/pages/65363/poultry-genetics-for-small-and-backyard-flocks:-an-introduction#.VP3dvPnF9BA

I would still like to see an Ayam Cemani / Black Silkie cross.

Are there times when it is beneficial to throw in a random pure bred, say a Black Australorp, into the mix? And then try to breed it back to Ayam Cemani? I read a lot of conflicting information on that.

 

[hnsmom]

hnsmom, my son has Aspergers, which is a mild form of autism. May I gift your daugher with some AC eggs? My stipulation on accepting this gift is to keep me posted on what hatches and how they mature.

To answer some of your questions, most of the chicks look perfect when hatched, except for toenails or some white on the toes. As they get older the flaws become more apparent. Pink can start showing in the combs as early as two weeks, or it may not start showing until maturity. Feather color leakage again at any age depending on how bad it is, but most will start showing around six weeks. For both pink comb and feather color leakage, the sooner it shows, the worse it's going to be on the adult bird. Even day old chicks with black combs and legs can mature to more green looking combs and legs. Currently I grow all my AC out to between six to twelve weeks, at which time they get sorted for either the grow out pens or "Freezer Camp". Those making the cut might be sold. If kept they will be assessed again before maturity.

Ah, that is what I was wondering. These two little guys LOOK perfect now, but they're only 2 days old so we know anything can happen. We were just so happy to have some hatch but then so dissappointed to learn that his reputation is less than stellar and that we might not have what we thought we had!
I appreciate your offer of a gift of eggs so much, but I sure wouldn't want anyone to just give them away. I will message you, though, and maybe she can purchase a small batch from you and we can give it one more go! She is so excited to finally be able to have chickens. They were not allowed in our previous town so we just had one "secret" Serama at a time for her to show for fair. lol She would really love to be part of developing this breed in the U.S.

 

[cjwaldon]

Are there times when it is beneficial to throw in a random pure bred, say a Black Australorp, into the mix? And then try to breed it back to Ayam Cemani? I read a lot of conflicting information on that.

Well it is theorized that Mike Bean crossed lavender leghorns into his Cemani. Most of the pictures people have posted regarding Mike's "Smithsonian" line look more like black leghorns with somewhat fm combs. I don't know how many generations back that was done, or how much more breeding it will take to get them back to black.

Most feel that we have enough genetics here to keep the breed viable without outcrossing. Why would you want to throw something else into the mix? If for egg production, I stopped counting after my first hen hit 140 eggs in her first laying season.

 

[cjwaldon]

Ah, that is what I was wondering. These two little guys LOOK perfect now, but they're only 2 days old so we know anything can happen. We were just so happy to have some hatch but then so dissappointed to learn that his reputation is less than stellar and that we might not have what we thought we had!
I appreciate your offer of a gift of eggs so much, but I sure wouldn't want anyone to just give them away. I will message you, though, and maybe she can purchase a small batch from you and we can give it one more go! She is so excited to finally be able to have chickens. They were not allowed in our previous town so we just had one "secret" Serama at a time for her to show for fair. lol She would really love to be part of developing this breed in the U.S.

I remember growing up we weren't allowed to have "livestock" either, but that didn't stop the local stores from selling chicks and ducklings for Easter. One year I came home with a couple of ducklings. I was lucky enough to get a pair. They roamed the entire neighborhood and nobody complained or turned me in, not even when the ducks "mowed down" their flowers and gardens. One day I found her nest. It had over 70 eggs in it! No, we didn't try to hatch them.

 

[MisfitMarie]

Well it is theorized that Mike Bean crossed lavender leghorns into his Cemani. Most of the pictures people have posted regarding Mike's "Smithsonian" line look more like black leghorns with somewhat fm combs. I don't know how many generations back that was done, or how much more breeding it will take to get them back to black.

Most feel that we have enough genetics here to keep the breed viable without outcrossing. Why would you want to throw something else into the mix? If for egg production, I stopped counting after my first hen hit 140 eggs in her first laying season.

I think I remember reading on the Greenfire Farms website that Ayam Cemani typically lay 60 - 100 eggs their first year, so 140 sounds awesome! I don't undertand why someone would want to throw a different breed into the mix, but I'm also not a breeder. I think it would end up taking a tremendous amount of work, and culling, to clean up the breed afterwards.

 

[MisfitMarie]

When I first started researching Ayam Cemani, a friend jokingly told me that they laid black eggs...
I believed them.