The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[HugHess]

Birdman,

I agree, with the exception that most statements (ebay descriptions) change with every auction! Their first auction, that I took notice of, stated 'hybrid'. Seems like the very next day their new auction changed it to 'pure', same pics, etc.
Egg pics were not part of the first handful, I think, of auctions.
Then pics, then disclaimer of egg color.
Since the day my babies hatched out looking like this...

I have tried to edify myself as to what is 'acceptable' and what is not...
In all that time I have never, never seen non off-white to varied shades of cream in Cemani eggs. No peach, pink, rose, brown, etc. I see it as straight out false advertising.
Bait and switch.
If I paid for a rare 'first' addition book and cracked it open to find the latest, rewritten version by another author, I would get my money back, right. I would stay protected as a buyer. Fertile hatching egg auctions should be no different. Sellers can always figure out the proper verbiage to protect themselves and we can stay 'whole' by getting pertinent facts/information upfront.
eBay allows a loophole by allowing Sellers to demand feedback on condition of eggs upon delivery and not your hatching. Bah! I could wrap a cow-patty to resemble a Cadbury egg, should I get five star feedback because I packed it well!?
eBay can do better, I think.

 

[cjwaldon]

The topic had already changed to answering Hughess's question about her pure or not pure birds and their eggs. Not exactly sure what comments your aimming your post at directly, we all know very well not all chicks come out black....but lacking some black and entirly pink skinned birds is two different things, also random leg feathers popping up is a fairly sure sign they were crossed with some thing else recently. Anyhow....Sunday was goregous here so i hope everyone starts laying again.

And that's why we can't have an open discussion.

Let's see how sure you are of your facts after you've carried a line a couple of years or more and hatched a few hundred chicks.

 

[Regin]

I have some eggs from
@cjwaldon
going into lockdown tonight.

No mater how they turn out, I have to say I believe she is an honest person and a good breeder.

I am looking forward to hatch date on Thursday!

 

[misfitmorgan]

And that's why we can't have an open discussion.

Let's see how sure you are of your facts after you've carried a line a couple of years or more and hatched a few hundred chicks.

So your saying that you have had chicks with feathered shanks? i wonder if that's a common thing for Cemani, some kind of mutation. As far as the entirely pink skin goes a chick here or there yes but entire batches of pink skinned chicks are definitely suspect.

 

[misfitmorgan]

I have some eggs from
@cjwaldon
going into lockdown tonight.

No mater how they turn out, I have to say I believe she is an honest person and a good breeder.

I am looking forward to hatch date on Thursday!

No one as far as i know was questioning Cj's breeding or birds etc.

 

[Regin]

Quote: Sure thing. I am sure her reputation is known. It never hurts to give a little pat on the back!

 

[hnsmom]

My 14 year old daughter is a 4Her - Intermediate Chicken Showmanship Champion Reserve last year, and Intermediate Chicken Showmanship Champion the year before. She really loves chickens, studies her Standards of Perfection book, and really knows a lot about them. She has autism and is particularly focused on her love and knowledge of chickens. She really wanted to try the ayam cemani line. We are very limited to the number of birds she may own in our town and this was the variety she really wanted even though it would not be in the Standards of Perfection book and would therefore have to show as a barnyard variety. (She does also have a Serama and a couple of different variety of chicks from the ranch store to show this year). She really wanted the unusual breed, though. She was the first person to bring a Serama to our fair two years ago.

We tried really hard to do our research before buying eggs, but even after weeks and weeks of reading, there is still a lot of confusion for us. We're aware of the different bloodlines available in the US but had to go the egg route which really seemed to limit us. We ended up buying six eggs from BobFarm on ebay who states that he has Toni Marie chickens. He seemed to have good feedback and we didn't find out until after weeks of researching (and after buying eggs) that feedback can be removed if it discusses anything other than egg condition. My daughter used her saved Christmas money for them, knowing they probably wouldn't have a good hatch rate being mail order eggs (plus we're at high altitude), our first time incubating, etc.

The six eggs arrived in good shape and we incubated them. We put them in on a Friday at 4:00 in the afternoon and 3 weeks later on Saturday morning we woke up early hearing peeping from one that had hatched. Late Saturday night another hatched. No more after that. The other four are still in the incubator for a last day or two, but I doubt any others will hatch at this point.

So she now has two little black chicks and is very happy, but I don't know how to break it to her that these might not actually be pure ayam cemani like she believes. They look like it to us at face value. They are black with black legs, toenails, tongues, skin. They do not have feathers on the legs. So how do we know if we have mutt chicks or not? How do we know if they are a different breed altogether? It seems that BobFarm does not have a very reputable following here, but at the same time, I am having a hard time finding out why exactly. I only find snippets of info about him, and occasionally posters have confused him with another ebay seller. He says his line came from Toni Marie. He claims he keeps and sells both pure and hybrid lines and claims he keeps them separately in pens so he knows which eggs come from which line. The eggs were marked as to the "line" they came from also. Half of ours were marked "A" pens and half were marked "B" pens. One of each hatched and if they are a pullet/cockerel, dd hopes to breed them when the time comes. She won't be able to keep the majority of them if she is successful in that due to our city limitations. We do not want to distribute birds to other families as ayam cemani, if they are not. I am positive that she will have the most knowledge in our area as to this breed so they will rely on what she tells them and we do not want to mislead anyone. We will have a judge at fair in August but he was not extremelly knowledgable about the Seramas two years ago (he is now) and I would think may not have a lot of knowledge about this breed either.

I'm just not sure where we go from here... she still has time that she could try hatching one more clutch of eggs before the 4H deadlines if we acted quick, but honestly, she has sunk the majority of her money into these eggs (and I helped her with half of the costs of them as well as the incubator, etc.) so she really doesn't have the funds to buy another half dozen eggs. And I don't know where we'd even GET the eggs if we did give it another go anyway as while everyone says don't buy eggs on ebay, there's not much guidance as to where you should purchase reputable eggs. I think I'm going to have a broken hearted little girl, but at the same time, I can't allow her to sell or give these away at ayam cemani, if in fact, they are not.

 

[cjwaldon]

My whole point was this thread has focused too much attention on discrediting people. I have not been attacked personally, but I feel this thread has been less than welcoming. I have been afraid to come forth with my hatching expereinces for fear of being treated the same way we've been treating the majority of eBay sellers. Yes, one seller showed a chick with feathered shanks. Which is worse? To know about the flaws, or have the seller cover it up and lie about it? Can't we get back to an open atmosphere where everyone can post of their successes and failures without fear of judgement?

To answer your question, yes, in almost 200 chicks, 3 have had feathered shanks. Yes they were culled. I am nowhere near expert on breeding chickens. In fact I'm probabably still in the class Chicken Breeding 101. The more I breed, the more I realize I still don't know much. When I was new to chickens and naive, I was sure I knew the facts. But breeding the AC has corrected a lot of my thinking.

 

[cjwaldon]

I have some eggs from
@cjwaldon
going into lockdown tonight.

No mater how they turn out, I have to say I believe she is an honest person and a good breeder.

I am looking forward to hatch date on Thursday!

Thank you Regin!

How many eggs are viable? Ooh, I'm so excited for you! I hope you get a great hatch!

 

[misfitmorgan]

My whole point was this thread has focused too much attention on discrediting people. I have not been attacked personally, but I feel this thread has been less than welcoming. I have been afraid to come forth with my hatching expereinces for fear of being treated the same way we've been treating the majority of eBay sellers. Yes, one seller showed a chick with feathered shanks. Which is worse? To know about the flaws, or have the seller cover it up and lie about it? Can't we get back to an open atmosphere where everyone can post of their successes and failures without fear of judgement?

To answer your question, yes, in almost 200 chicks, 3 have had feathered shanks. Yes they were culled. I am nowhere near expert on breeding chickens. In fact I'm probabably still in the class Chicken Breeding 101. The more I breed, the more I realize I still don't know much. When I was new to chickens and naive, I was sure I knew the facts. But breeding the AC has corrected a lot of my thinking.

Well isnt that odd..i wonder if anyone else has culled for feathered shanks. Would make you wonder if it is a mutation or some hidden gene from back when but isnt shank feathers a dominant trait usually? Personally i know i have a cross-bred D'uccle chick atm who has clean legs so if clean can come out of booted cross i would think it works the other way around too. No no i am definately not an expert on chicken genetics they are so very very complex.