The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[WalnutHill]

No need for yelling, just trying to have a discussion...


Birdman, I know that was your svart hona... and I stressed that I did not think the spots indicated a 'pure' bird... but I can't comment on svart hona eggs as I don't have that breed at all... all I can observe is what my Cemani eggs looked like after hatching as well as my other breeds...

Also, I am not saying to not listen to a professional, but he is making an observation based solely on a pic of an egg... if the pic was all I saw, I would be inclined to think there was something wrong as well... like bacterial or mold...

But... I have not lost a single chick out of my own hatches and their eggs had those spots... none of them were weak or poorly either... so bacteria just doesn't make sense to me as I would expect to see some sort of issue with at least one chick if they were contaminated with a bacteria...

I am interested in hearing what a professional thinks with the shell in hand and with all the surrounding info on the chicks health as well...

I am just curious if it is connected to fibro, as another member posted a pic that showed the spots in Hmong, if I recall correctly, as well...


I have an egg swap scheduled in spring with @Pyxis and @WalnutHill if she is interested...

I would like for us to work out an experiment on the shells, expression of fibro in chicks and frequency of the spots in the shells... I also want to include some control eggs from different breeds for additional comparison... if ya'll are willing?

Very interested.

If one were so inclined, a lab could do a culture on the shell membrane taken immediately at hatch. To do so, it would require that the egg hatch where the sample would be taken in a clean environment to rule out post-hatch contamination.

You've seen the staining of skin due to pinfeather leakage in poultry when immature feathers are picked or plucked, what is so unreasonable about the possibility that extreme fibro birds can leak a bit of that pigment into the membrane where the embryo rests against it?

 

[FridayYet]

I wish I had looked inside my eggshells this hatch. Really curious to see whether there were anything dots in them.

Admittedly I hatch less than others, but I do disinfect the incubator after every hatch and wash my hands before touching the eggs. I have never had a smelly or exploding egg nor a death that appeared to be from bacterial contamination (that I know of - no cultures were done at necropsy) The only thing I haven't done is disinfect the eggs prior to incubating.

Excited to see if I have any spots in the spring. This is so interesting.

 

[Ravynscroft]

I didn't say I would tighten up my disinfection practices because I already disinfect quite thoroughly... each and every time I incubate and hatch... I have only ever gotten a very few stinker eggs, which were removed promptly each time, and those were all shipped eggs...

I don't set poop contaminated eggs, or excessively dirty eggs... I don't sterilize my eggs, but neither do I risk any batches of eggs by setting any that might be off...

Also, in the same batches of set eggs, I did show a pic of one of my non-fibro breeds egg shell which showed no spots... and all of the eggs from that non-fibro breed had no spots, but every fibro breed egg did... and none of the chicks from those batches were infected with bacteria, poorly or failed to thrive... every single one is still alive, active and healthy...

And yes, I have papers from the breeder that my stock originated from... and knowing her sources and her integrity, I have absolutely no doubt that she has papers from her stock source as well...

I have not made a single dime off of my birds... in fact, I have given away some of mine and at least one was very exceptional quality...

It's not about 'making money off the breed'... I love this breed, their uniqueness, personalities, complex social structure and beautiful looks... it's about breeding them forward, better quality and preserving something special...

Making blanket assumptions about others integrity, honesty and practices is rather disappointing, IMO...

 

[dboranch]

...Edited to add, if birds don't hatch themselves. Please people don't hatch the bird. One u don't know if the Yolk is fully absorbed, the bird is not strong enough to hatch so why would u put it in ur breeding program, or hatch a weak bird.
Maybe I just have a more strict breeding policy then most. I used to help but after watching them struggle and stay weak and then later die. It's not worth the time effort or money. Missing eye, crooked toes, the crazy head syndrome where it looks like there reading a book from left to right, and even the I'm gunna spin myself around and around until I die chicken. As u guys know I hatch more then the average. And the hatching products I have are of quality. U can't expect to hatch perfect birds every time. So if they hatch cool if not dispose of them.

I do not help out a chick that hasn’t pipped on its own. I too hatch a great deal of eggs. I have had a hobby business for several years now of selling mainly chicks. I raise about a dozen different rare breeds and hatch out hundreds and many times well over a thousand each year. I have 2 Sportsman incubators and a stainless steel Hatchrite. At this stage of my hatching experience, I can take one look at them and pretty much know which ones are worth helping or not. Just because I help some of them along, it doesn’t mean they are going into my breeding program. I only use my best for breeding stock. However, I have a huge clientele of Southeast Asians and the biggest portion of my fm chick sales are sold to be eaten. They like them to be about the size of a pigeon when they butcher them. So no one goes to waste… even the culls are a prized meal to someone.

 

[birdman55]

This is why I don't share my opinions on here or anything I find out from a credible source. Bc in the end people will believe what they want to believe. Take the egg to a vet to look at n u think he is able to look at it n tell u if it's mold. And a poultry specialist couldn't. All I was trying to put out there is maybe we should take extra time n the cleaning process. Instead people r like I'm the best my birds r the best. I have nothing wrong with anything and I'm perfect with no problems and it became a pissing match. All I was trying to do was help. Obvious people r to sensitive and are not open to the fact that they might not be perfect with perfect birds and perfect environments. Reality check. One can always improve and learn but from now I'll keep to myself. I got my birds from gff and I have never had black dots till recently. should say something. Not that they magically became "pure". Anyways enjoy ur day.

Some quotes for the people out there about perfection.
"I fall. I rise. I make mistakes. I live. I learn. I've been hurt but I'm still alive. I'm human and I'm not perfect but I'm thankful."
"Remind yourself it's ok to not be perfect."

 

[WVduckchick]

People get testy sometimes. I have no dog in this hunt, but do have a curiosity about it. Birdman your expert only saw a picture and formulated an opinion. It could be perfectly correct, but without testing, there are still other plausible theories. With all the fibros that you have hatched, you having never seen them before holds more validity to me than an expect looking at a pic.

I admit, I probably don't sterilize as well as I could, but I've never seen those dots. I don't have fibros either. Maybe if it is mold development, maybe the cause of that development is related to the fibros. Scientific testing would be about the only thing that would convince me, either way. Jest sayin...

It's all about learning and sharing. Not arguing about it.

 

[cjwaldon]

Birdman, thank you for sharing your finding, knowledge and opinions. They certainly give us something else to consider. However, IMO nobody is in a pissing match. We're simply in open discussion about the topic, a friendly debate if you will. Some have posted that they already run a tight ship and keep their equipment clean and sanitized and yet are still noticing these black dots only in their fibro birds. We are simply curious about the phenomenon and posting our observations, observations that seem to indicate that maybe, just maybe, it's not mold or bacteria. Maybe, just maybe, there is something else going on that is attributable to fibro breeds, whatever the cause. Maybe those black dots are not attributable to fibromelanosis at all; maybe fibro breeds are just more prone to whatever is causing those dots. We're not saying what those black dots mean. We're curious about them, what they are, what causing them, curious why, thus far, we're only seeing them in fibro breeds. We're saying we are going to make more observations, to at least confirm if those black dots are consistently only appearing in only fibro shells. Personally I never paid any attention before so I can't really say whether they also appear in my other breeds. It could be an indicator of heath of flock or cleanliness of equipment, and I am open to that explanation. But maybe, just maybe, there is something more too it. I would expect if it was due to cleanliness, then it would appear in other breeds as well. You expect everyone else to accept your conclusion without question, without additional observation or study, based on one expert's opinion which was based on one photo of one eggshell, which happened to come from a fibro breed. Maybe, just maybe, that expert has no experience with fibro breeds and has never compared shells between fibro and non fibro breeds. Maybe that expert has seem something that looked similar that was indeed due to mold or bacteria, and therefor made the assumption that was the cause here, too. Sometimes even experts make mistakes. After all, that expert wasn't able to physically inspect that shell in person. At this point this is just a curious question. I am open to the possibility that it's mold. Are you open to the possibility that it's not? We posed a theory, and now we need to observe and experiment to either prove or disprove our theory, and make those observations again and again and again until we are comfortable that our theory has a good base. We can also test our theory. If the poor cleanliness proposition is correct, then I would think it should be easy to prove by intentionally hatching contaminated eggs, then comparing those shells to clean eggs. I think sending shells to a lab is a good idea, too. Not just one shell, but several, from both fibro and non fibro breeds. Let's find out what this is. But I do agree that the presence of these black dots is not a indicator of quality of birds. Maybe it's an indicator of saturation of fibro. Now wouldn't that be pretty cool to get an indicator upon hatch of how much fibro a particular bird has inherited? But we are far from making any assertions like that yet. Birdman, please do continue contributing to our discussions. We value your opinions and observations.

 

[birdman55]

Well said. I agree.

 

[birdman55]

My next batch is to hatch in less then a week about 75 eggs half are fibros

 

[birdman55]

"I have never bred birds with the fibromelanism. If it is in every egg of the birds carrying the traits there may be a relationship to a melanism that causes the spots especially if it I'd not in any other eggs set in the same hatch as other birds and no other breed shows the spots. That is why I asked about the navels of the chicks and hatch rates, etc.

Best way to find out is to have the eggs tested for bacteria and see if anything comes out."

This is what was said in returned email