The Buckeye Thread

[Blueface]

In the past few years I've viewed buckeyes both on actual farms and in photographs. There seems to be variations in head width. Why is that?

Thin heads will translate throughout the carcass and the back will more than likely be narrow as well from my experiences. I've also noticed that some buckeyes have a long head. I feel they should be more round with plenty of width rounding back like that of a cornish but not quite identical. Different people see this aspect differently so...to each their own.

 

[Blueface]

You will see variation in head width in most breeds. The real question is what is the desirable width and how does that relate to the rest of the bird. In my experience, if you want a good breadth overall in your bird, then go for the wider head for this carries through the bird. Narrow heads translate to narrower body, which in the Buckeye is not desirable. Going back to what I posted earlier quoting Nettie Metcalf's overall vision of the breed is a "modified Cornish appearance". Looking at a Cornish (I don't mean those skinny and narrow hatchery birds either), you can clearly see, they are a wide bird. Therefore, the Buckeye should follow suit in have good width throughout. However, unlike the Cornish that narrows quickly at the tail and has a very short and narrow tail (comparatively), the Buckeye's tail should have a smooth transition from back to tail so as to not appear too fluffy at the base, nor too pinched.

Good post!

 

[HappyBuckeye]

Some folks are even against crossing different lines of Buckeyes (called outcrossing). In other words, they do not believe you should cross a Buckeye into your line if not from your strain. I have found this NOT to be true. If another Buckeye line has something you need in your line, it can be beneficial to your line. Most lines go back to Urch anyway or has Urch introduced into their line at some point in the past so never really a true outcross.

What you are referring to when another breed, such as Cornish or Barred Rock, is crossed into the Buckeye to accomplish some improvement in a trait or traits is called grading (aka cross-breeding). I am OK with grading if the breeder does it correctly, and I think it should be done only when a particular trait cannot be improved by good breeding within the breed. There are many examples of breeds being messed up because of irresponsible grading but a lot of those were folks toying with the foundation breeds.

The Buckeye is a composite breed. If you choose to cross-breed, that you use one of the breeds used to originally make the breed.

Composite breeds are those that have been developed from the original foundation breeds or other composite breeds. Theoretically, if a composite breed went extinct, you would be able to re-create the breed using the breeds used to originally make it. If a Foundation breed disappeared, its genes would be forever lost. There are also some very old composite breeds that people are just not sure how they were created.

Oh, no, I was talking about those that are trying to make Buckeye sex links. Just curious why someone would want that, but Merengoite explained it pretty well for me. Sounds like they are just doing backyard experiments for fun, but still keeping pure Buckeyes.

I think it would be much more challenging to recreate the Buckeye today mostly because the original breeds of chickens are not the same as what would have been available in the 1800's. The cochin for sure are much more poofy and have even more feathered legs than when they were first brought over. I know when I was first researching the Buckeyes, I was surprised that breed was even used, but after I read about the differences between the way they were then and the show birds of today it makes sense. Many of the foundation stock that Nettie started with were still in the developing stages. I know for sure the Buckeyes I saw at the Columbus show a few weeks ago were really poofy and kind of small headed, much smaller heads than my Buckeyes anyway. Makes me wonder about their weights. Maybe wouldn't make a very good table bird. We'll eat the razor breasted culls, they taste fine, just doesn't make a very good roasted chicken. I hate having to make two of them to feed my family.
Thanks for explaining about the grading. Is that something you have much experience in? Have you tried it?

 

[slfarms]

Oh, no, I was talking about those that are trying to make Buckeye sex links. Just curious why someone would want that, but Merengoite explained it pretty well for me. Sounds like they are just doing backyard experiments for fun, but still keeping pure Buckeyes.

I think it would be much more challenging to recreate the Buckeye today mostly because the original breeds of chickens are not the same as what would have been available in the 1800's. The cochin for sure are much more poofy and have even more feathered legs than when they were first brought over. I know when I was first researching the Buckeyes, I was surprised that breed was even used, but after I read about the differences between the way they were then and the show birds of today it makes sense. Many of the foundation stock that Nettie started with were still in the developing stages. I know for sure the Buckeyes I saw at the Columbus show a few weeks ago were really poofy and kind of small headed, much smaller heads than my Buckeyes anyway. Makes me wonder about their weights. Maybe wouldn't make a very good table bird. We'll eat the razor breasted culls, they taste fine, just doesn't make a very good roasted chicken. I hate having to make two of them to feed my family.

Thanks for explaining about the grading. Is that something you have much experience in? Have you tried it?

Welcome to the buckeye thread. It's nice to read someone has done some research into Nettie's works and understands the difference between the birds back then and the ones now. . Keep learning and asking questions.

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[homeworkin]

I am interested in two types of breeding. One is furthering the breed and keeping them sustainable. Purebred Buckeyes should still be going strong in a hundred years. That requires good breeding programs. To my mind that also means bringing in good Buckeye genes so you don't overbreed a line and create genetic issues. Since there are so few breeding birds, it makes sense to me to include good birds of more than one line in a breeding program. I am sure some will disagree, but I hate seeing overly inbred animals. A good example is dog breeds with tendencies towards hip dysplasia or deafness.

The other kind of breeding that interests me is crossing for learning about genetics and to create a useful bird. Most people near me only want pullets. They don't care about breed. If I can give them guaranteed pullets with good personality and good laying ability, plus I get a full freezer, it is good. I raised Cornish X this year for the freezer. Next year I want to fill our freezer with our birds.

 

[AinaWGSD]

Hi Guys, I'm really trying to learn as much as I can. I've been scrolling though all of the comments from today. I'm a little surprised you all are talking about crossing the Buckeyes and making sexlinks. I'm new here, so maybe this is not so unusual LOL. I just expected this would be a discussion on breeding for shows and improving the traits. I'm sure everyone does things a little differently, for me I just try to keep all my breeds separate so I don't end up with any crosses, but I guess they all taste fine.
My Buckeyes are already pretty stout, meaty with nice drumsticks which the kids love. I've been trying to keep that characteristic. Now I'll be looking very closely at the heads, especially if that's a good way to increase the body size.

So with the sexlinks projects, is that just so you can tell the males from the females earlier? Y'all don't kill off the baby male chicks like they do at the hatcheries do ya?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it would be for personal use. If I were able to sex the chicks at hatch, I could sell off the pullets as day-olds and make a little money and keep the cockerels to grow out for meat. If I don't need new layers for my laying flock, then I don't have to spend the money to grow the chicks out to an age where I can tell the difference between the genders and I don't have to spend money feeding pullets I don't want. There's a much bigger profit margin (not that I am in chickens for money, I certainly don't expect to actually make money and consider it great if I break even) if I only have to feed them for 1-7 days vs feeding them for 8 weeks or more. I also don't have to worry about selling a bird as a pullet and having it turn out to be a cockerel. There are always more people looking for laying birds than looking for extra cockerels, and in my area most of them are less concerned about what breed they are than what `color egg they lay. And I finally have my husband convinced that home-grown birds are far superior to the factory farmed chicken we get at the grocery store and worth the effort to grow them.

I'm sure there are some buckeye people out there who are wholly against any sort of cross breeding. But I like to think that a large number of the people who keep buckeyes are drawn to them for utility purposes. For a purely utilitarian purpose, cross breeds and hybrids are generally just as good (if not better) than purebreds.

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[buffalogal]

Quote:
The easiest way to get sex link birds is use a solid colored male over a barred hen. The resulting males with be barred, the females will be solid colored with perhaps a red head. Tomorrow I'll post a picture of a Dominique/ Buckeye cross that's running around here. He's not something I bred intentionally, just one of several that showed up one day trailing a clever broody, but will give you a good idea of the potential for hybrid vigor in a first generation cross breed. That's really all those Cornish X birds are; first generation crossbreeds from carefully selected and intensely inbred Cornish and White Plymouth Rocks.

 

[buffalogal]

Quote: I agree, not all close matings are bad; and neither is every "genetic bottleneck". The purebred Alpine dairy goat in the US descended from an initial import of just 13 animals, and the Lamancha breed really traces back to only two individuals. Inbreeding (linebreeding) is a way to "double up" on the good qualities of a superior animal in it's offspring, though it's a double edged sword, as you will also be increasing the chance for genetic faults to express themselves. What makes linebreeding successful is the willingness of a breeder to remove faulty animals from the breeding program. I've always liked this chart as a 'blueprint' for linebreeding, as it gives you the formula for creating three distinct lines; one favoring the original sire, one favoring the original dam, and the third that is a composite of both the original birds. Of course the genetic deck of cards doesn't always get shuffled and cut square, so the exact percentages will vary in an individual bird. But the basic plan is still sound.