The Dorking Breeders thread

[capayvalleychick]

Here's my current set up. It's kinda shabby & simple right now, given that they aren't laying yet, I've just got a wooden box propped up on a cinderblock with a piece of tin on top. Along the bottom of the kennel, I ran chicken wire. I've also got a couple of plant baskets in there growing herbs, but they've mostly destroyed those & scratched all the soil out lol. So much for that. The piece of wood bock the door is bc I didn't get the chance to run chicken wire along the bottom of it yet. It's been too dang hot & humid here to do much of anything! Once everyone starts laying, I will have to upgrade their housing. But this will be done at the same time I separate my MCMs from my mutt birds.

How many "points" should they have? They're not really babies anymore...

I wouldn't worry about number of points until you have type, weight and the more important things correct. Except for side sprigs (points sticking out the side of the comb). Number of points on the comb is a minor thing compared to everything else.
If you are serious about breeding, you need to buy an APA Standard of Perfection. This will answer many of your questions and give you a guide for selection.

I'm concerned about that coop. It's not predator proof. I put 4 foot wide wire fencing under the perimeter of my coops with open floors. I have had predators dig under a kennel coop. I've also had them reach right through chain link and eat the bird from the outside. Regular chicken wire won't stop them. You have to put either hardware cloth wire or some sort of solid panels (like roofing panels) all around the outside and where the roost is located. You also need hardware cloth all around those large gaps between the door and sides. Those openings around the roof are also an invitation for predators. If you have weasels or mink, even that may not be enough protection.

 

[MacCana]

I wouldn't worry about number of points until you have type, weight and the more important things correct. Except for side sprigs (points sticking out the side of the comb). Number of points on the comb is a minor thing compared to everything else.
If you are serious about breeding, you need to buy an APA Standard of Perfection. This will answer many of your questions and give you a guide for selection.

I'm concerned about that coop. It's not predator proof. I put 4 foot wide wire fencing under the perimeter of my coops with open floors. I have had predators dig under a kennel coop. I've also had them reach right through chain link and eat the bird from the outside. Regular chicken wire won't stop them. You have to put either hardware cloth wire or some sort of solid panels (like roofing panels) all around the outside and where the roost is located. You also need hardware cloth all around those large gaps between the door and sides. Those openings around the roof are also an invitation for predators. If you have weasels or mink, even that may not be enough protection.

Ah ok, well I haven't noticed any side sprigs, so that's good to know it's not something I have to worry about right now- since I don't really have many birds considered my "good stock" to begin with as it is, I'd rather not have to count them out over that to and have absolutely nothing. Where do I go about buying that?
You bring up valid points. The chicken mesh ran along the inside there, actually extends about another 6 inches under ground, attached to housing bricks with thick wire. I've got probably 22-25 bricks buried along the perimeter. So even if something were to dig, it'd run into them or chicken wire. I know chicken wire isn't the strongest, but my budget hadn't allowed me to buy enough hardware cloth instead. The gap at the front (where the supporting middle pole is showing) was actually my fault from ordering too small a size of outdoor tarp. I plan to buy the right size once it begins getting more like fall weather.. Then I'm putting whats on there now & wrapping the sides to help keep cold wind out of where they sleep. The gaps between the corners of the cage are actually covered with chicken wire, unlike the door & the gaps next to it. I just continually wrapped it along the inside, so I did think enough ahead to secure the corners lol.
I hadn't even considered what you said about the roost area, & I'm glad you bring that up. I don't want anything grabbing my chickens & trying to pull them through the chain link while their sleeping. As far as predators here, all I'd have to worry about are snakes (I have 2 lavender guineas in there with my chickens), coons, opossums, stray dogs, and chicken hawks. We also have foxes in my neck of the woods, but they stick to the really really rural areas. There's always too much commotion going on in the subdivision we live on the edge of. But between our 4 inside/outside cats & our lovely little farm dog Lady, & our neighbors little daschund who thinks she's a guard dog too, we haven't had any predator problems since we moved here. I've never even seen any minks or weasels growing up here. If we do have weasels, they keep fairly well hid.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Here is a link to the Dorking Breeder's Club site: http://dorkingbreedersclub.webs.com/generalcharacteristics.htm

That will provide you with a list of general characteristics. The order of importance is frame shape, size, feet, head, and then color. So a bird with an excellent frame but poor comb is better than a bird with a perfect comb but round frame or small size. That doesn't mean that you ignore things lower on the list, but they are weighted differently in your decisions.

The ideal comb is large, well anchored, evenly serrated, and has 6 spikes. Very few roosters have a perfect comb. Until your breeding program is well underway, the most important things about combs are not so much that they be perfect, but that they not be really strange, and that they not have any side sprigs.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

.... The chicken mesh ...extends about another 6 inches under ground, attached to housing bricks with thick wire. I've got probably 22-25 bricks buried along the perimeter. So even if something were to dig, it'd run into them or chicken wire. I know chicken wire isn't the strongest,...

I hate to tell you this, after you worked so hard to enclose their pen, but I would hate it more if you lost your chicks to predators because I kept quiet. Chicken wire keeps chickens contained. It does not keep any predator out, plus it rots quickly underground.

You should also worry about cats: yours, the neighbors' and any feral specimens roaming around would enjoy dining on tender, young chicken. You may not have had a predator problem yet because you did not offer easy pickings.

Best wishes,
Angela

eta: you can discern rose from single-combed specimens at a young age, if your birds are of mixed parentage. Also, I would not worry about the odd-colored feather here and there in a bird less than 3 months old, even if your birds are great. Those feathers may molt out pretty soon.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Yes, I have to agree, there are several predator opportunities that I can see. It's hard to tell from the picture, but is there chicken wire enclosing the top underneath the tarp, or is the tarp the only thing on top?

It is, unfortunately, fairly expensive to build a truly predator proof enclosure. I was fairly lucky -- before I built my first chicken pen my boss had a predator attack. He came in obviously upset, and when I asked what was wrong he said that all 25 of his hens had their heads pulled off in the middle of the night. It was the first attack he'd had in 5 years of having birds. Raccoons had reached through the chicken wire and grabbed them by the neck. No one was left alive. I hadn't really thought about it much before then -- just planned to put up a large pen made of 2X4 welded wire and a little wooden box house, much like you have but without the nice chain link. But that attack on my boss's chicken was like a slap in the face, and I started thinking about predator behavior.

You need to have everything enclosed with chewproof wire, because raccoons and opossums can both climb and chew. Tarps aren't barriers to anything other than hawks and rain. Hawks can fly through a 6" opening. Raccoons can unwind chicken wire, reach through a 3/4" opening, pull staples out, unlock most simple latches, open doors, and dig under fences. Dogs can jump on coops, knock over anything that isn't extremely strong, push open doors, push up latches, and dig under fences. Weasels can get through 1" wire, climb, and chew through anything that's not metal. And everybody loves chicken for dinner.

Things are a lot easier if you don't have mink or weasels, since you don't have to enclose your entire coop in hardware cloth. For my pens, I use 2X4 welded wire on the sides and top. I also attach a 2 foot width of welded wire to the bottom of the pen and lay it on the ground along the entire perimeter (so the sides of the pen are the vertical portion of an "L" and the added portion is the horizontal portion of the "L," and the horizontal portion is on the outside of the pen, not the inside). I attach it every 4-6 inches with either hog rings or J-clips (used in building cages). I use landscape staples to keep it laying flat (although that's probably not necessary). Within a year the grass grows up around it and almost incorporates it into the ground, so you don't even know it's there, and it last for years (I recently checked a pen that was 10 years old, the wire was rusted but still effective). I've never had a problem mowing over it. But with a 2 foot width, nothing is going to back up that far to start digging, so it's been 100% effective.

To prevent raccoons reaching in, I have 1/2" hardware cloth along the bottom 2 feet (3 feet on some pens) of the walls, and I don't have anything the birds can roost on within 2 feet of the walls. If I did, I'd have the hardware cloth higher on the wall to prevent a raccoon from reaching in near that roost.

With the chain link frame, there is also a concern about the gaps created with the rounded corners at the top and bottom of each right angle, and at the gate. There may also be enough clearance between the gate and the gate frame for a predator to slip in (it's amazing how flat they can become when slipping between bars if there's enough width to flatten out).

Predator attacks may never happen, and the longer we go without one the more relaxed we become. But then one day a smarter or braver predator moves into the neighborhood, and without warning you have your entire flock destroyed. There's less heartbreak if you do whatever is necessary to avoid predation than if you only react to it.

 

[MacCana]

You all make excellent points. My kennel cage does need better, more permanent predator-proofing in areas. But the only thing that has kept me from really making it a safe, solid permanent enclosure is the fact that we won't be living here next year. By then, we'll have to be living in a property that we own (paying a mortgage on). Currently, we live in a home owned by my father. My logic with the chicken wire was that it's inexpensive and easy enough for me to cut along the bottom & corners of the cage for when it is time to move & take the kennel down. Once its set back up again, I do plan on putting the money into hardware cloth. The rest of the issues are something I can fix now, and I realize that. I guess I have become relxed here due to how easy its been as far as wild varmits & predators go, Where we lived before, back behind a state park, raccoons would routinely break into our trash cans. We even had a bobcat show up once (I didn't have chickens at this time). Here, the worst annoyance has been one of our neighbor's yappy yorkie. He gets tore up any time he sees our cats, which is multiple times daily lol. He's in a fenced in yard btw. And I'm pretty sure if I threw one of our cats over on his side, he'd cry & run (you've met those types of dogs haven't you? lol).
I do plan on making improvements to the roosting area this weekend. Will prbably be able to afford a small length of hardware cloth from our local supply store to wrap that area with. As far as aerial predators, chicken hawks & owls would be my only concern. I'll try to work up some kinda bird netting to cover the gap as well. That problem will be drastically improved when I go to buy the correct sized tarp for the top this fall & use the other to cover the backside & roost area. Then I can just come up with something to block off the front & back triangle openings. I'm not really sure what to do about the gaps next to the door on either side. If I continue wire, I'm anchoring the door to the walls & I'd be afraid the constant bending would break the wire sooner than later. Any suggestions other than what I'm doing currently with the wooden board?
As far as a coon lifting the latch & opening the door, You many not can tell, but there's a thick yellow chain also locked in place to keep the door from being opened.
I have to brag on our cats here too btw. They're very good with the chickens. And are actually fascinated & kind to them. They get to see the chicks go from incubator to our bedroom floor in a brooder for 5-6 weeks, all during which time the cats get to look in on them anytime. Then once they go outside, our cats actually all gather to follow me when I go to the coop to feed or let them out or clean. We've never had a problem & actually, when they're free ranging under the bushed & trees along the sides of our house, the cats will hang out wherever they can be right in the middle of the flock. Our dog is our livestock/cat guardian, so she protects the chickens. Our only 2 neighbors with dogs that aren't fenced all day, are small breeds that have never once bothered our chickens or cats. They even come during free range time to watch the commotion. We joke sometimes(neighbors too) that we have a perfect, functional animal community going on of perfectly mannered pets lol.
I'll make what issues secure that I can on my Saturday off this weekend & post pictures next week to see what you all think. I appreciate the honest opinion & advice, really. I've known it could be more secure, but this has done the trick so far here & I've gotten relaxed. But you're right, it's better to be prepared or the worst, than to have to worst happen & lose a whole flock to a rare happening.

 

[Sydney Acres]

You all make excellent points. My kennel cage does need better, more permanent predator-proofing in areas. But the only thing that has kept me from really making it a safe, solid permanent enclosure is the fact that we won't be living here next year. By then, we'll have to be living in a property that we own (paying a mortgage on). Currently, we live in a home owned by my father. My logic with the chicken wire was that it's inexpensive and easy enough for me to cut along the bottom & corners of the cage for when it is time to move & take the kennel down. Once its set back up again, I do plan on putting the money into hardware cloth. All the upgrades can be designed to be easily moved. I have some wire laying on the ground attached to one of my gates. Every time I want to open the gate I just fold up the ground wire, attach the free edge to the gate with some latches (like you'd see on a dog leash), and then when I'm done with the gate I just unclip the latches and lay the wire back down. You could easily fold up the wire when the chain link panels are moved.. Hardware cloth permanently attaches to the sides, so that is not affected by moving. Also, it's a good idea to have your predator proofing perfect when you move into a new neighborhood. Many new flocks get killed during the first week after a move. Predators are very curious about new things. The rest of the issues are something I can fix now, and I realize that. I guess I have become relxed here due to how easy its been as far as wild varmits & predators go, Where we lived before, back behind a state park, raccoons would routinely break into our trash cans. We even had a bobcat show up once (I didn't have chickens at this time). Here, the worst annoyance has been one of our neighbor's yappy yorkie. He gets tore up any time he sees our cats, which is multiple times daily lol. He's in a fenced in yard btw. And I'm pretty sure if I threw one of our cats over on his side, he'd cry & run (you've met those types of dogs haven't you? lol).
I do plan on making improvements to the roosting area this weekend. Will probably be able to afford a small length of hardware cloth from our local supply store to wrap that area with. If there's lots of different places to buy farm supplies, it can be worth it to call around. When I shopped for my hardware cloth, I found anything from 78cents/foot to $1.08 per foot. As I kept calling around, I eventually found a place that sold it to me for 54 cents/foot if I bought the 100 foot roll. If you have financial concerns, sometimes in the long run it is cheaper to save up for the right (final) product, then to spend money on something that is going to have to be replaced in a short time. As far as aerial predators, chicken hawks & owls would be my only concern. I'll try to work up some kinda bird netting to cover the gap as well. Bird netting can be expensive unless you find it on a super sale. Welded wire can be less expensive, and raccoons can't chew through it. That problem will be drastically improved when I go to buy the correct sized tarp for the top this fall & use the other to cover the backside & roost area. Then I can just come up with something to block off the front & back triangle openings. As temporary barrier against raptors only, you can put an old sheet up to close the openings. Raccoons and opossums won't be impressed, but raptors won't go through it. For a long term barrier you'll need welded wire or hardware cloth. I'm not really sure what to do about the gaps next to the door on either side. If I continue wire, I'm anchoring the door to the walls & I'd be afraid the constant bending would break the wire sooner than later. Any suggestions other than what I'm doing currently with the wooden board? There are several options. Probably the easiest is to attach a width of welded wire (or hardware cloth) to the current wall wire with hog rings or j-clips. The hog rings or j-clips will act as door hinges. Then the other edge of the wire "patch" is attached to the other side of the opening, or perhaps bent to go around a corner. Ideally the patch should have a decent overlap of the chain link. The clips would need to be removed every time you opened the run door, but that would only take seconds if you used multiple clips instead of baling wire. A raccoon is unlikely to open all of them.
As far as a coon lifting the latch & opening the door, You many not can tell, but there's a thick yellow chain also locked in place to keep the door from being opened.
I have to brag on our cats here too btw. They're very good with the chickens. And are actually fascinated & kind to them. They get to see the chicks go from incubator to our bedroom floor in a brooder for 5-6 weeks, all during which time the cats get to look in on them anytime. Then once they go outside, our cats actually all gather to follow me when I go to the coop to feed or let them out or clean. We've never had a problem & actually, when they're free ranging under the bushed & trees along the sides of our house, the cats will hang out wherever they can be right in the middle of the flock. Our dog is our livestock/cat guardian, so she protects the chickens. Our only 2 neighbors with dogs that aren't fenced all day, are small breeds that have never once bothered our chickens or cats. They even come during free range time to watch the commotion. We joke sometimes(neighbors too) that we have a perfect, functional animal community going on of perfectly mannered pets lol.
I'll make what issues secure that I can on my Saturday off this weekend & post pictures next week to see what you all think. I appreciate the honest opinion & advice, really. I've known it could be more secure, but this has done the trick so far here & I've gotten relaxed. But you're right, it's better to be prepared or the worst, than to have to worst happen & lose a whole flock to a rare happening. So true!!

 

[capayvalleychick]

I'm not really sure what to do about the gaps next to the door on either side. If I continue wire, I'm anchoring the door to the walls & I'd be afraid the constant bending would break the wire sooner than later. Any suggestions other than what I'm doing currently with the wooden board?

I put hardware cloth around the door on the inside. The door still opens out. There's a photo like what I did, here: post #22 I started that thread, when I had the same questions as you.

If you would like to buy the actual APA Standard of Perfection, here is the link: http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/store.htm There is lots more information, in addition to the standard for the breed, that you need to know, in the first section of the book.

 

[LindaB220]

That is an excellent strategy for hatching out large numbers of chicks to select from, leaving only the best to keep. But if I'm going to kill a bird, it needs to be big enough to make at least one meal, and preferably 3-4 meals. So I like to keep even the obvious culls until they're dinner sized.

But I have to admit that sometimes when I put eggs in the refrigerator, I look at them and wonder if one of them contains the perfect chick, if only I could hatch them all. Maybe in a few years I'll hatch out more, and keep the culls out in the back pasture to grow out and fill the freezer. As long as I can afford the food, there's no reason to get rid of chicks prematurely when they'll be so delicious in a few months.

Good idea!!!!!!

 

[MacCana]

Thanks "peeps"! I live in a very small town, so the only nearby suppl stores that aren't outrageous is the ACE Hardware & TSC in the next town over and a Lowe's in the next town over on the opposite side of us. There's one in town, but it's owned by a local & unfortunately, costs more than it would to drive to another town & buy from a corporate store. ACE by far, has been the cheapest with fencing wire, and they'll cut it to any length you want, rather than make you buy the whole roll. I think I'll take a ride down there this evening to get enough to cover the door & roost area. The only thing I'd be hesitant about is using a sheet to cover the gap. I don't have any extras, so I'd have to go buy one (I could totally get one on the cheap from GoodWill next to ACE), but I'd be worried with the type of summer weather we have here, it'd be growing mold in no time. Have you used a sheet outdoors where your at & it last a while? Here, I can't even leave my little one's plastic toys out on our porch when it's humid, bc they begin growing black mold on them. We have moderate rain during spring & summer here. Regardless, I'll make it better than it is & show ya'll once the weekends over