The Dorking Breeders thread

[LindaB220]

We are showing in junior competition at some shows in Oklahoma. Thus far, I have not seen another Dorking! Our lone silver-gray pullet gets BB/BV by default. We are very interested in a good blood line to breed her, and are also interested in other colors, but don't plan on mixing the colors. We plan to breed for exhibition. Any recommendations on a good place to find stock? Our one bird is a McMurray hatchery chicken, but seems to have good confirmation according the the APA SOP. Since there is no competition, and judges seem to know very little to begin with, I can't be absolutely certain. She is also very intelligent and sweet.

Glad to have you. I'm out of Shreveport, La. My oldest DD just moved this past month from Austin TX to Vancouver. Lovely area up there. I'll be going to see her in a few months. You have come to the right place to find good Dorkings.

 

[JanetMarie]

If you are interested in Single Comb Colored Dorkings, they are SOP and need all the help they can get. If your are interested specifically in rose combs, the White Dorking is the only color in the U.S. where the SOP calls for a rose comb. The British Standard allows for additional colors to have rose combs.

I have seen the white Dorkings (not in person), and they are beautiful. I would only get hatching eggs though, and haven't found any. I am really only interested in rose combed or pea combed birds, because I live in MIchigan where it gets cold. Other considerations in choosing a breed is something you wrote that the more rare the bird the more important it is to select correctly. Considering my lack of experience I don't want to set myself up for failure. I have to choose carefully.

 

[3riverschick]

I have seen the white Dorkings (not in person), and they are beautiful. I would only get hatching eggs though, and haven't found any. I am really only interested in rose combed or pea combed birds, because I live in MIchigan where it gets cold. Other considerations in choosing a breed is something you wrote that the more rare the bird the more important it is to select correctly. Considering my lack of experience I don't want to set myself up for failure. I have to choose carefully.

Why? Get started birds. It is the wisest way to begin. The breeder has time to cull the chicks for quality.
Eggs don't really save you money. You spend just as much or more raising the chicks to the "started" stage as if you bought the started birds. Only about 1 of 10 chicks from a quality strain end up being show quality. Plus, no breeder is going to guarantee that hatching eggs will be foundation quality birds. That's silly. That can only be determined with started birds which the breeder has culled at least once for quality.
Or get retired breeders that have a season or two left in them. Just get ahold of BYC jwhip or Yellow House Farm and either get their birds or from someone they recommend.
Merry Christmas,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Here is a way to get started quality birds. I wrote this the other day for another BYC thread.
First decide how much room you have to breed chickens. You will need to raise at least 30 to 50 chicks a year from a top strain to find the best 3 to 5 to run on to the next year. If space is an issue, choose a bantam breed. The chick math works out that you can raise 2x as many birds in the same place if you pick bantams. But the eggs are smaller. Bantams are very popular right now so if you choose them, make sure you buy from a top strain. You want to do that anyway, regardless of the size you choose. Forget the hatcheries. You will not find foundation quality birds there and grading up your stock from hatchery birds takes a lot of time and money.
Start with the best. How do I ID a top strain? They have several hallmarks.
1. Is a veteran strain which has been around for years or decades. It takes time to stabilize a gene pool and winnow it to top form.
2. It is line-bred or a combination of line and some other breeding method. It takes "method" and wisdom to winnow the good from the bad and stabilize that gene pool. The breeder will "know" their stock and its genetic heritage.
3. Winning in quality competition. That means multiple wins at the big shows, not worried about showing to all comers. Not just state or country fair wins. .
Caveat: Unless the wins are notable ( Grand Champion and/or at a huge fair like the Texas State Fair ).
4. Over multiple generations. This means the breeder knows how to keep their winning gene pool stable and can also help teach you how.

Now these top veteran breeders usually do not sell eggs or chicks. Trying to start a foundation flock with egg or baby chicks is a rookie mistake. You want started birds which the breeder has had time to cull for quality at least once. Or retiring breeder birds which have a season or 2 of breeding left in them. Being sold because the breeder has used their virtues and has descendants so doesn't need them any more. They are not 2nd class birds. Tell the breeder you respect their strain and want to line-breed on it ( and then do it). You will pay more for the started or adult birds, but it will cost you way less than starting from eggs or baby chicks. Plus, you will redeem a lot of time and be on track to hatch eggs with the rest of us this Spring. Do not let "egg fever" get the best of you in this regard.

How do I find these top veteran breeders ( or someone who has very recently bought from these strains and has birds only 1 or 2 generations removed from the top strain? Start with the APA. Join and buy the year book. They also have back yearbooks for 5.00 each. Buy several of them. Start looking at show records for recurring wins in your chosen breed. Who is repeatedly taking the Breed or Championship of Group or even Show? If your breed also has an egg virtue like the Marans, check the online egg show results to see who is winning consistently. Then cross check that info to see which of the egg winners is also winning at the shows. This all takes research. But it will pay off in the end in time and money saved by choosing wisely. Join your chosen breed's parent Club and ask around there. The top strains are well known and they can help you find them.

When you find a breeder, listen to him/her. You are not wiser then they. Do not cross strains to found a flock. I cannot stress this strongly enough. Poultry are different from mammals and founding a flock on crossed strains can set you back years in regaining the stability of the gene pool in your flock. There are many sex-linked genes in poultry, not seen in mammals. Plus the color patterns are not just generally described by color , they are specifically written into their Standards. To win you need precise color, not a bird whose coloring "kinda" looks like the drawing in the Standard. Poultry races are founded on a very wide genetic base. This gives you a lot of diversity even in a linebred vintage strain. Plenty of diversity to tweak it to your artist's eye while still breeding to the APA SOP. If you ever decide to strain-cross, get ahold of your breeder and ask the which strains nick with yours. They will know and can guide you in that. After several generations of breeding you will get to know your chosen strain and can start to make some decisions for yourself and double check them with your chosen breeder. It just takes time.
Best Success,
Karen
One other thing. Don't be seduced by the "rare breed" Syndrome. There is a reason these breeds are rare and/or not accepted by APA. Too small a gene pool, too complicated (or unstable) of coloring, not enough production virtues, health problems from improper breeding methods. Not enough breeders interested in them because of flaws in the breed which leads to small scattered gene pools. Look at which breeds are winning at the shows. They are "mainline" breeds with storied histories ( including much writing to study) and a large enthusiastic following which freely shares info and stock. In a breed, small breeders can hold the line on quality, but it takes the big breeders hatching hundreds of chick each year to advance the breed as a whole.

 

[JanetMarie]

Only about 1 of 10 chicks from a quality strain end up being show quality.

Merry Christmas,
Karen

That was my suspicion that it takes lots of chicks to hatch and raise to get a few good breeders. I choose hatching eggs because that is my preferred way of raising birds, not to save money. But, to go through so many chicks would be too much to get a few good birds. Thanks

 

[JanetMarie]

3riverschick:

Good information on getting started quality birds. I have been doing a lot of reading on breeding. There are a lot of different opinions and ways that breeders and chicken raisers do. I take all this in, and focus on what makes sense, and what different breeders repeatedly say to do and not to. This all helps, to be set up before making mistakes. Good information about "rare breed syndrome".

Thanks

 

[DesertChic]

Here is a way to get started quality birds. I wrote this the other day for another BYC thread.
First decide how much room you have to breed chickens. You will need to raise at least 30 to 50 chicks a year from a top strain to find the best 3 to 5 to run on to the next year. If space is an issue, choose a bantam breed. The chick math works out that you can raise 2x as many birds in the same place if you pick bantams. But the eggs are smaller. Bantams are very popular right now so if you choose them, make sure you buy from a top strain. You want to do that anyway, regardless of the size you choose. Forget the hatcheries. You will not find foundation quality birds there and grading up your stock from hatchery birds takes a lot of time and money.
Start with the best. How do I ID a top strain? They have several hallmarks.
1. Is a veteran strain which has been around for years or decades. It takes time to stabilize a gene pool and winnow it to top form.
2. It is line-bred or a combination of line and some other breeding method. It takes "method" and wisdom to winnow the good from the bad and stabilize that gene pool. The breeder will "know" their stock and its genetic heritage.
3. Winning in quality competition. That means multiple wins at the big shows, not worried about showing to all comers. Not just state or country fair wins. .
Caveat: Unless the wins are notable ( Grand Champion and/or at a huge fair like the Texas State Fair ).
4. Over multiple generations. This means the breeder knows how to keep their winning gene pool stable and can also help teach you how.

Now these top veteran breeders usually do not sell eggs or chicks. Trying to start a foundation flock with egg or baby chicks is a rookie mistake. You want started birds which the breeder has had time to cull for quality at least once. Or retiring breeder birds which have a season or 2 of breeding left in them. Being sold because the breeder has used their virtues and has descendants so doesn't need them any more. They are not 2nd class birds. Tell the breeder you respect their strain and want to line-breed on it ( and then do it). You will pay more for the started or adult birds, but it will cost you way less than starting from eggs or baby chicks. Plus, you will redeem a lot of time and be on track to hatch eggs with the rest of us this Spring. Do not let "egg fever" get the best of you in this regard.

How do I find these top veteran breeders ( or someone who has very recently bought from these strains and has birds only 1 or 2 generations removed from the top strain? Start with the APA. Join and buy the year book. They also have back yearbooks for 5.00 each. Buy several of them. Start looking at show records for recurring wins in your chosen breed. Who is repeatedly taking the Breed or Championship of Group or even Show? If your breed also has an egg virtue like the Marans, check the online egg show results to see who is winning consistently. Then cross check that info to see which of the egg winners is also winning at the shows. This all takes research. But it will pay off in the end in time and money saved by choosing wisely. Join your chosen breed's parent Club and ask around there. The top strains are well known and they can help you find them.

When you find a breeder, listen to him/her. You are not wiser then they. Do not cross strains to found a flock. I cannot stress this strongly enough. Poultry are different from mammals and founding a flock on crossed strains can set you back years in regaining the stability of the gene pool in your flock. There are many sex-linked genes in poultry, not seen in mammals. Plus the color patterns are not just generally described by color , they are specifically written into their Standards. To win you need precise color, not a bird whose coloring "kinda" looks like the drawing in the Standard. Poultry races are founded on a very wide genetic base. This gives you a lot of diversity even in a linebred vintage strain. Plenty of diversity to tweak it to your artist's eye while still breeding to the APA SOP. If you ever decide to strain-cross, get ahold of your breeder and ask the which strains nick with yours. They will know and can guide you in that. After several generations of breeding you will get to know your chosen strain and can start to make some decisions for yourself and double check them with your chosen breeder. It just takes time.
Best Success,
Karen
One other thing. Don't be seduced by the "rare breed" Syndrome. There is a reason these breeds are rare and/or not accepted by APA. Too small a gene pool, too complicated (or unstable) of coloring, not enough production virtues, health problems from improper breeding methods. Not enough breeders interested in them because of flaws in the breed which leads to small scattered gene pools. Look at which breeds are winning at the shows. They are "mainline" breeds with storied histories ( including much writing to study) and a large enthusiastic following which freely shares info and stock. In a breed, small breeders can hold the line on quality, but it takes the big breeders hatching hundreds of chick each year to advance the breed as a whole.

Outstanding post, Karen! Thanks for taking the time to type all of this out to share with us.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Outstanding post, Karen! Thanks for taking the time to type all of this out to share with us.

X2 Karen. Absolutely agree, and thank you for putting it in writing.

 

[3riverschick]

More than welcome. Took 5 failed starts in another breed to learn
it.

 

[JanetMarie]

More than welcome. Took 5 failed starts in another breed to learn
it.

Must have been frustrating. I am definately taking advise of experienced breeders, before making mistakes.