The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[speckledhen]

Love the Brahma in your avatar.

That is my big, sweet buddy, Bash. Isn't he a hunk? He's molting now, but not at all grouchy about it.


I'm off to bed. The young man who wants the young trio is supposed to come tomorrow, but he has to have his mom drive him up here, almost 2 hours. Hopefully, she will just rack it up to a pretty, fall drive to the mountains and he can get the Brahmas he so badly wants. But, I got up about 6:45 a.m. and I'm crashing. So g'nite, all.

 

[1muttsfan]

Good news, Cheryl

 

[Leahs Mom]

@speckledhen
Those look amazing (love cheesecake anything)! Did you post a recipe? I was trying to catch up by skimming quickly so I may have missed it.

 

[speckledhen]

@speckledhen
Those look amazing (love cheesecake anything)! Did you post a recipe? I was trying to catch up by skimming quickly so I may have missed it.

No, I didn't post a recipe. Just "Bing" Copycat Starbucks Pumpkin Cheesecake Muffins and you'll get quite a few hits on it. The one I used called for candied pumpkin seeds (you do it with raw seeds yourself), but I didn't have any.

 

[Leahs Mom]

On the topic of ff, I wanted to post a couple of the studies that I'm aware of rather than trying to re-state a lot of info. I think that, if you want to discuss the topic, reading the studies will help make more sense out of it all. I'm guessing that there are more out there but Here are a couple.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724

https://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/60378/48610

This one is really detailed. Jump all the way to the end if you like a 1 paragraph conclusion.

****
The very basic definition of a food or substance that acts as an "anti-nutrient" is:

A substance that interferes with the utilization of one or more nutrients by the body. [ex oxalate and phytate, which prevent calcium absorption]

The University of KY has a nice little resource listing different types of grains, proteins, and other feed items for poultry feed. In each of the grains, legumes, etc. mentioned, it states which are highest in anti nutrients that should NOT be fed raw; some should not be fed at all.

I've always believed that if an item has to be cooked or long-fermented (meaning months...not just a few days), then it isn't an item that a chicken would eat naturally (such as soy and amaranth just to name a couple). (I've never seen chickens build a fire and roast soybeans, for example. Yet they are toxic if not cooked or properly fermented.)

Here is that resource:
http://www2.ca.uky.edu/smallflocks/Nutrition.html

 

[speckledhen]

I've always believed that if an item has to be cooked or long-fermented (meaning months...not just a few days), then it isn't an item that a chicken would eat naturally (such as soy and amaranth just to name a couple). (I've never seen chickens build a fire and roast soybeans, for example. Yet they are toxic if not cooked or properly fermented.)

YES, I agree. That's been one of my points, though you are much more articulate than I am in expressing it. What I see are also people whose birds are already healthy with shiny feathers and decent egg production and they do this "thing" that is supposed to do what? Why fix it if it ain't broke? And why take a chance on something that, if done incorrectly, or if you don't pay super close attention to detail, can actually kill your birds? It's like us eating pufferfish and taking instructions on its preparation from someone who got some direction from someone who knows someone who said it was good for them. That stuff will kill you if it is not prepared exactly right.

 

[getaclue]

Thank you Leah's Mom. This further reinforces my resolve that I don't want to use fermented feed, and far too much hooplah is being made over anti-nutrients than necessary.

 

[Leahs Mom]

I really think that the University of KY resource is very useful when deciding what to feed and what not to feed as far as anti nutrients. And they give the reasoning and behind it, stating the results of studies on the subject.

I most certainly like the idea of sprouting seeds much better than ff for what it accomplishes. And, if you think about it, in a wild situation seeds that chickens would come across would most likely already have begun to sprout. At the very least the seed coat would have begun to deteriorate and soften some after being on the ground in the weather - which is the idea of soaking seeds and grains before eating them in the first place. There is a whole different enzyme profile available for digestion because of that process.

I've watched wild birds meticulously work at cracking open a seed or nut to eat the interior while leaving the seed coat. I've seen my chickens do the same thing. That's exactly what they do with sprouts (not fodder, sprouts).

Even when you think about how mice and some other rodents interact with seeds it makes sense. They gather them and store them, often in a dark, damp place underground that would accomplish the breakdown of the seed coat over time.

 

[getaclue]

I've read quite a bit about anti-nutrients. From every credible source, they are rarely a cause for concern.

 

[1muttsfan]

the African Jounal of Biotechnology article mentions moistened poultry diets, not fermented. Interesting comments about chick digestion of dry food.

The British Poultry Science reference is only the abstract, not the complete article. There was the suggestion in the final lines that some important issues were left out of the abstract - " It was concluded that fermented wet feed offers potential benefits for health and nutrition, but may become suitable for layers only after the practical problems related to this feeding form have been overcome. However, an early adaptation of the birds during the rearing period seems to be necessary"