The Health Care Law.

[Matthew3590]

In Canada and the UK the goverment healthcare system tax/funding is not so high as to have caused a major hardship of its citizens.

32% of Canadian income goes to taxes. That is pretty hardening to its citizens.

 

[cupman]

Man oh man. Go away for two days to work on a research paper and the thread has grown almost 50 pages. About impossible to keep up, impressed it has not been locked for good.

 

[cupman]

32% of Canadian income goes to taxes. That is pretty hardening to its citizens.

How much do you pay in taxes here? I think Mitt is the only guy crafty enough to get away paying less than 14% tax.

 

[ChicknThief]

My personal opinion (based on my understanding of this bill and all the issues that have come to light in this thread)

This bill is bad news. Matthew, while you and I are not always on the same page politically, your last post is dripping in truth. Our government does not operate in such a way that things just magically become cheaper over time. How far in debt is this country? Do you really think that the government will look at all that extra money coming in and think "nah, let's just give it back to them and lower the costs." Heck no. If anything, the cost will go up. Regardless of what the "actual" cost is and how many people are paying it.

Stephanie, one of the posts you made, you stated that there would be subsidies for those who could not afford the 700$ per month tax/fine/whatever. And you followed that statement up with "who can afford that right now anyways?". You are right. A lot of people can't. A LOT. So who exactly is going to foot the bill for that large number of people? Because you are absolutely correct. And someone will have to pay it. But who? The working class. We will get to pay it. And then when we struggle, we will be "too wealthy" for help. This system is designed to cater to those who either cannot or will not do for themselves, at the expense of those who can and do.

As redhen said, it is very easy for those who have nothing to lose to proclaim the wonders of this bill. As I said before in this thread, I may be in line to gain health insurance, but who cares? As a direct result of this bill, 4 generations of my family will be jobless. From my great grandmother, down to me. Not to mention the 350+ people we employ. Please Stephanie, help me see the bright shining silver lining there. Forgive my bitterness, but there it is. Take a good look at someone who is going to lose EVERYTHING and tell them that this bill is a good thing. And don't think that this is an isolated incident. Mom n Pop business all over this broken country will close their doors. Like corporatism? Congratulations. Because this bill is about to wipe out all reasonable competition for the "big corporate".

I also agree with the "cleaning out the fridge" reference someone maide. (Royd?) This bill is 2700 pages long. Why on earth did we pass into law something that not a single person knows exactly what it is? Excluding perhaps those who wrote it. I will likely be dedicating some of my spare time to reading as much of it as I can, but I know that I will likely never be able to read it in it's entirety. That is a scary thought. Who knows what is really there?

To those who are making the arguement that it works elsewhere, I am willing to bet that the leaders of those countries did not implement this during one of the worst economic crisis' in their country's history. The American populace is barely getting by as it is. This was hardly the time to add an extra expense, regardless of how you label the darn thing.

 

[hemet dennis]

One thing that needs to be said. Stephanie I am sorry but you are incorrect about it becoming cheaper. Car insurance went up when the government forced people to have it. Houses got more expensive when the government tried to "help" the housing bubble. Whenever the government interferes with private sector it always gets more expensive and the services become worse.

I lied. One thing the government did make better was when they took over the management of rail roads.

They only took over passenger service and they lose millions every year at it. And that millions is your tax money.

 

[ChicknThief]

One thing that needs to be said. Stephanie I am sorry but you are incorrect about it becoming cheaper. Car insurance went up when the government forced people to have it. Houses got more expensive when the government tried to "help" the housing bubble. Whenever the government interferes with private sector it always gets more expensive and the services become worse.

I lied. One thing the government did make better was when they took over the management of rail roads.

The above quote is the post I was referring to in my second paragraph. You guys are quick haha

My personal opinion (based on my understanding of this bill and all the issues that have come to light in this thread)

This bill is bad news. Matthew, while you and I are not always on the same page politically, your last post is dripping in truth. Our government does not operate in such a way that things just magically become cheaper over time. How far in debt is this country? Do you really think that the government will look at all that extra money coming in and think "nah, let's just give it back to them and lower the costs." Heck no. If anything, the cost will go up. Regardless of what the "actual" cost is and how many people are paying it.

Stephanie, one of the posts you made, you stated that there would be subsidies for those who could not afford the 700$ per month tax/fine/whatever. And you followed that statement up with "who can afford that right now anyways?". You are right. A lot of people can't. A LOT. So who exactly is going to foot the bill for that large number of people? Because you are absolutely correct. And someone will have to pay it. But who? The working class. We will get to pay it. And then when we struggle, we will be "too wealthy" for help. This system is designed to cater to those who either cannot or will not do for themselves, at the expense of those who can and do.

As redhen said, it is very easy for those who have nothing to lose to proclaim the wonders of this bill. As I said before in this thread, I may be in line to gain health insurance, but who cares? As a direct result of this bill, 4 generations of my family will be jobless. From my great grandmother, down to me. Not to mention the 350+ people we employ. Please Stephanie, help me see the bright shining silver lining there. Forgive my bitterness, but there it is. Take a good look at someone who is going to lose EVERYTHING and tell them that this bill is a good thing. And don't think that this is an isolated incident. Mom n Pop business all over this broken country will close their doors. Like corporatism? Congratulations. Because this bill is about to wipe out all reasonable competition for the "big corporate".

I also agree with the "cleaning out the fridge" reference someone maide. (Royd?) This bill is 2700 pages long. Why on earth did we pass into law something that not a single person knows exactly what it is? Excluding perhaps those who wrote it. I will likely be dedicating some of my spare time to reading as much of it as I can, but I know that I will likely never be able to read it in it's entirety. That is a scary thought. Who knows what is really there?

To those who are making the arguement that it works elsewhere, I am willing to bet that the leaders of those countries did not implement this during one of the worst economic crisis' in their country's history. The American populace is barely getting by as it is. This was hardly the time to add an extra expense, regardless of how you label the darn thing.

 

[RHRanch]

You all do realize that bills usually are very long and not usually read by those who vote on them, right? That is not a unique scenario just to this bill.

 

[DuckLady]

I am closing this for a while again so tempers can calm and the rules can be reviewed
We need to stay on topic here No flaming, no fighting, no personal attacks.

I will reopen it in a while.

Thanks and please, no PMs about it.

 

[cupman]

I guess the thing I need to ask about is a comment from Matthew. You say how cost of auto insurance went up when the government required it... I haven't actually checked if that is true but even if it is do you think that is a bad thing? My first vehicle, a truck, got plowed into by an uninsured driver. I got money from my insurance company but they don't understand the sentimental value of a man's first vehicle that they own. My replacement vehicle was good, but not the same. I guess I wonder who is better off by not having to require auto insurance... seems those without hurt the rest of us. Nobody thinks they need insurance until they get in an accident.

 

[Royd]

I guess the thing I need to ask about is a comment from Matthew. You say how cost of auto insurance went up when the government required it... I haven't actually checked if that is true but even if it is do you think that is a bad thing? My first vehicle, a truck, got plowed into by an uninsured driver. I got money from my insurance company but they don't understand the sentimental value of a man's first vehicle that they own. My replacement vehicle was good, but not the same. I guess I wonder who is better off by not having to require auto insurance... seems those without hurt the rest of us. Nobody thinks they need insurance until they get in an accident.

We have become a nation which is all about minimalizing risk of any kind....Let me say, the only insurance I have is auto insurance and only because it's required, and that runs about $3 a day for a '91 one ton Dodge. Well, that and my onerous garbage tax which I pay for about 12 cans of garbage per yr.

I cannot not imagine the tax burden on someone with a $200,000 house with a mortgage, 2 kids, a wife and two new vehicles. Either you have to make $100,000 yr. or let something slide.

The question I have is how did we get brainwashed into thinking that life should be without risk and lose? I can understand the sales pitch by ins. companies, because that's money in their pockets, but I think it's much deeper than that.