The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

Let's talk wing cuts and color


When I first started with some birds that were highly bred for production, the surface color of the males was sort of OK. The females lacked surface color altogether, something every typical of a production oriented bird. In better lines, the breeder has paid close attention to color, but to speak of color, one must speak of under color. This is the color of the butt fluff, and the color of the feather below the surface, Dig down deeper on the back of your birds and look to see if the top surface color, a rich, dark red, as the Standard calls it, goes down the feather all the way to the skin.

In lesser birds, when you dig a bit deeper, you find lighter colored fuzzing down there. Often, you will find a slate color as well. If you find these features, just scrap what you have. Just start over with better birds. There's little to be accomplished wasting years on a bird with genetics of rusty, tan colored or slate colored under color. No matter how slick the surface color, if the under color is not reasonably dark to the skin, and good reddish color in the quill going down to the skin, you would be better off scrapping and starting over in most cases.

So what does the wing cut teach us? Consult the first 40 pages of the SOP book for wing studies, feather identification, etc. I'm not going to bother rehearsing what you can read for yourself. Those first 40 pages are the true bang for the buck in buying the SOP. Trust me on that.

OK, a win cut or a wing opened and spread correctly will show you a lot about your bird's breeding. On a Red, the definition of the black and the placement of that black in the wing is critical. A production oriented strain will look similar to this photo which I just pulled off the images on the net.



A bird with a wing cut such as this? Scrap it.
It will simply take too long to "breed it up", a concept largely ill conceived and an enormous waste of time and feed.
Throw it in the layer pen, but forget about it. It isn't a true Red at all. It is a scrub.

Here's a better wing cut. Again just a net image.



This is a better wing cut. Note the black is marked better, but upon closer inspection, you'd likely find some peppering. I couldn't find a good photo of peppering but you'll know it when you see it. It's not a pretty sight.

Now here are two wing cuts that show what you're looking for in your birds. The first is a bantam, but the Standard is the same, remember.





I want to draw your attention to this last presentation of a bird, I believe by Danny Feathers and yes, that is his name. Here we see a richness in the red. It is free of peppering and the black is well placed in the primaries. (We aren't seeing the secondaries.) The deepness or richness of the red in the wing cut will show you the true under color of your bird. Lay that open wing on the back of your richest colored bird. The red in the wing should approach the same richness in color as the surface color of your best bird, especially your best male. When you get that? You're getting what you want in true color, true rich under color, not just surface color. Most folks who don't know Reds well only look at the surface color of their birds. Until we learn to dig deeper and commit to judging how we're doing with under color and wing color, we''re missing an important aspect of our program.

One of the things I've pushed on very hard in the breeding pen, what old timers call "putting pressure on it", has been under color. I am thrilled with under color in this year's birds and am equally pleased with wing cuts in most of the birds.

There remains sooooo much more work to do however, as it is always something that needs attention. We never "arrive".

Hope this helps. It's all stuff we all have to learn. Nobody here was born with this knowledge. Nobody.
 
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Thanks for all that info. I was searching information about wing color and feather shape a couple months back but couldn't find much on it. This pretty much covers it. I feel like the wings aren't discussed as much as they should be. Everybody loves to talk about type, body color, leg color, and tail angle, but when it comes to wings, I think a lot of people don't really know what to say.

Really, really useful information right there.
 
Let's talk wing cuts and color


When I first started with some birds that were highly bred for production, the surface color of the males was sort of OK. The females lacked surface color altogether, something every typical of a production oriented bird. In better lines, the breeder has paid close attention to color, but to speak of color, one must speak of under color. This is the color of the butt fluff, and the color of the feather below the surface, Dig down deeper on the back of your birds and look to see if the top surface color, a rich, dark red, as the Standard calls it, goes down the feather all the way to the skin.

In lesser birds, when you dig a bit deeper, you find lighter colored fuzzing down there. Often, you will find a slate color as well. If you find these features, just scrap what you have. Just start over with better birds. There's little to be accomplished wasting years on a bird with genetics of rusty, tan colored or slate colored under color. No matter how slick the surface color, if the under color is not reasonably dark to the skin, and good reddish color in the quill going down to the skin, you would be better off scrapping and starting over in most cases.

So what does the wing cut teach us? Consult the first 40 pages of the SOP book for wing studies, feather identification, etc. I'm not going to bother rehearsing what you can read for yourself. Those first 40 pages are the true bang for the buck in buying the SOP. Trust me on that.

OK, a win cut or a wing opened and spread correctly will show you a lot about your bird's breeding. On a Red, the definition of the black and the placement of that black in the wing is critical. A production oriented strain will look similar to this photo which I just pulled off the images on the net.



A bird with a wing cut such as this? Scrap it.
It will simply take too long to "breed it up", a concept largely ill conceived and an enormous waste of time and feed.
Throw it in the layer pen, but forget about it. It isn't a true Red at all. It is a scrub.

Here's a better wing cut. Again just a net image.



This is a better wing cut. Note the black is marked better, but upon closer inspection, you'd likely find some peppering. I couldn't find a good photo of peppering but you'll know it when you see it. It's not a pretty sight.

Now here are two wing cuts that show what you're looking for in your birds. The first is a bantam, but the Standard is the same, remember.





I want to draw your attention to this last presentation of a bird, I believe by Danny Feathers and yes, that is his name. Here we see a richness in the red. It is free of peppering and the black is well placed in the primaries. (We aren't seeing the secondaries.) The deepness or richness of the red in the wing cut will show you the true under color of your bird. Lay that open wing on the back of your richest colored bird. The red in the wing should approach the same richness in color as the surface color of your best bird, especially your best male. When you get that? You're getting what you want in true color, true rich under color, not just surface color. Most folks who don't know Reds well only look at the surface color of their birds. Until we learn to dig deeper and commit to judging how we're doing with under color and wing color, we''re missing an important aspect of our program.

One of the things I've pushed on very hard in the breeding pen, what old timers call "putting pressure on it", has been under color. I am thrilled with under color in this year's birds and am equally pleased with wing cuts in most of the birds.

There remains sooooo much more work to do however, as it is always something that needs attention. We never "arrive".

Hope this helps. It's all stuff we all have to learn. Nobody here was born with this knowledge. Nobody.
It seems a bit ironic that you should make a post on this particular subject. Yesterday afternoon I held the cockerel you pointed out in my video, checking his wing color. There was a bit of peppering in his juvenile feathers, and I was pleased to see that they are now similar to those in the pics above. I've also been paying very close attention to the black in the hackles of these birds. About half of my birds have too much black, but the other half have good ticking. I have one pullet that is a lighter shade of red than the others, and she also have very light ticking in her hackles, so she should be a good match to one of the cockerels if he has too much black but good characteristics otherwise. Most of my pullets have red in their main tails, some more than others, so I'll probably have to push the black a bit on the heavy side to correct this for the first mating. Would be nice if you stopped by on your way to NO this fall/winter and help me with my matches. Just saying...
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I know folks get weary of hearing this, but when you first get started with Reds, focus almost solely on type, yes, type type type. Breeding stuff with hump backs makes more hump backs. Breeding pie shaped birds, as seen from above, will just spread that wrong type to the next generation. They never "outgrow" pie shape or hump backs or a host of other things. Time will not cure these things.

Color is also often "dodged" as a discussion item precisely for this reason. Everyone has a tendency to gravitate toward color issues, pro and con, and can be distracted from the true mission of one's first year with the birds. Type type type. No feed in the world, no grow out time will ever fix lack of type. May as well just ditch it and get on with better birds. If you cannot assemble a breeding trio within your own start up group? Get out a show NOW and spend time messaging folks NOW about what they might bring you to a show this fall/winter.

If we don't do this? If we succumb to hoping it will just all, somehow, work out? We'll just waste next year and possibly even move backward. I heartily recommend folks to keep "kicking the can DOWN the road", forward, not sideways, not backward, but down the road. Those that have ears will hear.


This is my first year with the Red bantams. I'm trying very hard to heed my own advice here and take my own medicine.
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Thank you so much for the wings. I can't the pictures link to work off Mr. Blosls site. Are there any good pictures on tails?


Zoom right in on this tail. You'll see the tinge of red, just a tinge on the tail feather that this female is sprouting. Finding clear black tail feathers on your females is very rare. What we do is fight it tooth and nail. If you don't fight it and just accept too much red, it soon runs rampant.

This is her mother at about the same age.



If you zoom and lighten this photo? You'll see it. It is almost impossible to be shed of completely in your line. Tough stuff.

I showed this female at the Red's national meet last year and she was very highly placed. Not saying she was a bad bird, but the reality is that getting females with clean tail feathers will drive you nuts.

The following photo is from Jim Rankin's site. It shows a Nelson female. Likely a grandmother to birds we got from Jim several years back. You can see the red tinges in the tail feathers.

 
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Get out a show NOW and spend time messaging folks NOW about what they might bring you to a show this fall/winter.
Speaking of which....

What line do you raise? I'm looking for a good cockerel so I can start breeding this next season. It seems rather inconvenient to wait until next fall. I graduate next June and we'll be getting our own place shortly after where I can start breeding full time. For the time being, I already am setting up a 6 x 10 pen with a 3 x 4 coop. My first choice was a trio of reds, but if I can't find any reds, Im certain I'll still be able to find a use for it. LOL. Coop is ordered and coming on Saturday.

I can pick up at Ohio....
 


Zoom right in on this tail. You'll see the tinge of red, just a tinge on the tail feather that this female is sprouting. Finding clear black tail feathers on your females is very rare. What we do is fight it tooth and nail. If you don't fight it and just accept too much red, it soon runs rampant.

This is her mother at about the same age.



If you zoom and lighten this photo? You'll see it. It is almost impossible to be shed of completely in your line. Tough stuff.

I showed this female at the Red's national meet last year and she was very highly placed. Not saying she was a bad bird, but the reality is that getting females with clean tail feathers will drive you nuts.

The following photo is from Jim Rankin's site. It shows a Nelson female. Likely a grandmother to birds we got from Jim several years back. You can see the red tinges in the tail feathers.

My pullets are 20 weeks old and their "main" tail feathers have a lot of growing and filling in to do, but just out of curiosity, do these tails have what you would consider excessive red?






I have one pullet that has a good bit of red on her mains. I was told to mate her with a male with solid black tail and good black in his wings to help overcome this situation. Should I try to work with her, or just toss her in the laying house?

 

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