The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[Chickens Naturally]

The new blood will be needed at some point with any breeding program. You just HaVe to be careful IMO opinion in any outcrossing that it is not to far of a outcross. New blood in the same strain from another source I think would be fine,however you will still have to cull. As mentiond before you better be ready for when you start crossing. To much hetrosis popping up for most to hammer back out. I think the no strain crossing is the word of wisdom to the beginners to not get to screwed up. Far out crosses results in a lot of mediocers and differences in the f2' f3, and further generations without some serious breeding and culling

Ok first let me put out this disclaimer to beginner and intermediate breeders: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CROSS ANYTHING, it is not worth the effort and you will likely cross up some birds and then quite the line/breed SO DON'T DO IT!

Now, Bluetick thanks for you effort in satisfying my need for this to make sense to me. I can sleep with that!

 

[Chris Herzog]

Well first let me say thank you for your reply. I should have asked specifically about bringing in new blood from a related line and not a separate breed, however, the question was brought up about the New Hampshire which is at least related to the RIR. For the purpose of this scenario though let’s just consider bringing in fresh blood from one RIR line to another line. First of all, why would you want to do this? Cocker Tan Bark states, “Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl…” (Tan Bark, Game Chickens and How to Breed Them, 1964, p. 27). Well if every line of chickens were of good size, healthy and fit, there would be no reason to do this. However, if a particular line of chickens have become problematic, could be poor layers, poor hatchability, poor health etc.., what do you do with those chickens?
What if, in addition to some of these other issues, chickens were small? How could you make intelligent selection? What I am suggesting is that there may be a time when it is advantageous to bring in new blood. This is very different from someone wanting to cross up say RIR with frizzle silkies, mess up the gene pool and then abandon the breed after a few years. As a preservationist, what are you preserving with a line of chickens in poor condition and how many years before they would be abandoned as well? Now I have been following several threads and read where lines (of different breeds) suffer from these problems, suggested the need for bringing in new blood, then been told there were no issues and then continued reading about the issues. I have read where some have ‘tried’ different lines and didn’t want the issues and decided to abandon those lines. I’m assuming that the idea, that it is never acceptable to ‘cross’ lines are the reason they are abandoned or never worked with to begin with. What I am asking is, is that always the case? If nobody wanted to work with a particular line of heritage chicken because it had become too problematic, would it really be better to lose that line than attempt to improve it by bringing in new blood?
There is more than one way to bring in new blood. If you end up with one sixteenth new blood, for example, you’ve already been selecting from the offspring who have inherited the ‘legs’ or ‘neck’ from the new blood introduced for several generations right? The purpose of bringing in new blood would be to revive vigor and to introduce some genetic diversity to work with right? I’m just a little skeptical that you never cross anything for any reason is always the best answer, but I’m open to learning, that’s what I’m here for. Thanks again for your input.

I have to assume that when one says not to cross strains that they are really talking about some of the strains that are available and in good shape. For example....a Reese line RIR and a Don Nelson RIR. You can't go down to the corner feed store and buy these birds but there are a number of Breeders around the country that have them and if you look long and hard and if your in the right place at the right time, you might be able to get you some of these great birds. I have to also assume that when Don Nelson reads on the internet that Joe Chicken Farmer picked up a Reese Cock bird at the county fair he just got home from and is now going to cross the bird over his Nelson hens he picked up last year to make them....bigger or whatever, he maybe cringes just a little.

I think the guys telling you not to do this have either learned from their own mistakes or the mistakes other that they know may have made. I feel that these guys trying to help us new guys are all smart enough to realize that if someone has a strain that's in dire need of help and the only thing to do is cross a bird from another strain on to what you have because there is no other option, that they would help you through the process if help was asked of them.

I think we all have to read between the lines sometimes and really try to understand what is being said and why. Most of these Breeders only want the new guys to be successful and stick with the Breed X. They don't want you to do something that you might start to regret at some point and ditch your birds because of poor decisions.

Right or wrong this is just my take on this topic. Their your birds, do what you want with them and have fun doing it. If you cross them and you are a success good for you and if your not it's not the end of the world. Either way, learn from it and move forward.

Chris

 

[Chickens Naturally]

I feel as if no matter what words I use, I'm not expressing myself well enough to you. I'm sorry for that. By mixing I meant that where would be some amount of the old blood and some amount of the new blood in the hatched chickens.
To be clear, right now there are great breeder quality HRIR available each spring and that number is growing. Maybe there are a few months of the year when it is hard to find these great chicks, but come spring they are available.
So for me, the very short answer to your question of should new blood ever be introduced is NO. This answer is for me. You can do whatever you want with your birds, no one is going to come knocking on your door and take them away.
I have tried to explain to you the amount of work that would be generated by using new blood, but you keep coming back and imo changing the question or the definition of new blood. New blood from a different line of HRIR ~ still for me NO I'm not going to add it, mix it, or introduce it. I WILL NOT start a 5 year long process when I can get new chicks the next spring. New blood from the same breeder line as my chickens well that is not really new blood now is it. But breeders on here do spread their chickens out in the event that all of their roosters or hens get killed by something like a raccoon. Then they can replace the dead breeder chickens with a chicken or two from their line and not have to deal with starting over or a 5 year process like you are suggesting.

Sally, I'm sorry this response was not meant for you. When you were kind enough to address me directly I 'quoted' you and replied to you directly. A couple of folks were obviously addressing my comments, but not addressing me directly or talking to someone else, which gets kind of confusing. This was an attempt to reply to these folks not you. I understood you very well and I agree that getting the same blood from a different state is not outcrossing. To be clear, I don't want to do anything with my birds and I can't disagree that there are plenty of good RIR lines to choose from, again to make my position clear to you, it was to challenge the idea that introducing new blood in never acceptable in any situation. Bluetick just responded with what I think is a very good position and gave examples of when it would be needed and when it would not and I agree. Sorry for the confusion. I won't respond to you generically without addressing you. Thanks

 

[Chickens Naturally]

Most of the pictures of the HRIR lines on here are already very nice and high scoring for perfection to the Standard. Mostly what is needed is to fix vigor and fertility that is caused by inbreeding and that is best accomplished by finding someone with the same line and getting chicks from them. I already have my eye on a fellow in Washington for my HRIRs from Ron Fogle.

There are other breeds (SG Dorking?) that are not as close to perfection that do need to bring in breeders from other lines but then there are faults that are caused that need to be corrected by generations of breeding. I have seen this process--I am helping a friend work on getting SG Dorkings closer to the standard of Perfection. It is a noble project but one that is not needed with HRIRs

Get some HRIR chicks from one of the Breeders on here and work within that line.

Hey, sorry Ron I just accredited someone else with your reference here regarding the Dorking. I'm not grasping the concept of 'outcrossing' to the 'same line' though and I'm not sure that's what you are saying, but for example, if a line of chickens have been line bred from the same birds, some say a hundred years and you bring in some of those same genetics from a different state, how is this bringing in 'new blood' or am I missing something here?

 

[ronott1]

Hey, sorry Ron I just accredited someone else with your reference here regarding the Dorking. I'm not grasping the concept of 'outcrossing' to the 'same line' though and I'm not sure that's what you are saying, but for example, if a line of chickens have been line bred from the same birds, some say a hundred years and you bring in some of those same genetics from a different state, how is this bringing in 'new blood' or am I missing something here?

They would be distant relatives so hopefully the contain the same basic genetics. More short term than 100 years--in five years I will want to find someone that has not crossed the Fogle line with something else so that I will not be breeding sisters and brothers too much. It looks like you can only go so long with breeding when you start with three chickens to breed from.

They start hatching poorly and lose vigor.

 

[immyjay54]

Sally, I'm sorry this response was not meant for you. When you were kind enough to address me directly I 'quoted' you and replied to you directly. A couple of folks were obviously addressing my comments, but not addressing me directly or talking to someone else, which gets kind of confusing. This was an attempt to reply to these folks not you. I understood you very well and I agree that getting the same blood from a different state is not outcrossing. To be clear, I don't want to do anything with my birds and I can't disagree that there are plenty of good RIR lines to choose from, again to make my position clear to you, it was to challenge the idea that introducing new blood in never acceptable in any situation. Bluetick just responded with what I think is a very good position and gave examples of when it would be needed and when it would not and I agree. Sorry for the confusion. I won't respond to you generically without addressing you. Thanks

Chickens Naturally

This is directed to you and anyone else that thinks that you just have to do something with these Red's. I normally don't like to put second hand information in my writings but I will not post the email that I have on file from one of the breeders of one of the oldest lines that we have today. I won't say the oldest but it is probably number 1 or 2.
If you have 2 families of the same line and you keep them separate you DO NOT ever need to bring in new blood from anywhere else. You can keep them separated then every 5 or 6 generation you can cross just a small amount of birds from each family then gradually mix them back in to their original families and you will always have enough generations between there to do this. I know lots on here are reading between the lines and know who I'm talking about and that is fine.
Can we do this or that?????? Most certainly. Will you turn into a pumpkin if you do it????????? I certainly hope not. Do the better breeders care if anyone does this????????? I think deep down they care enough to say WHY. All I can say is I hope that the breeders that I know keep up their good work so if anyone writes me about getting birds I can refer them to the ones that I know has not done anything to mess up anything.
With all this said, IF you are not planning on doing this then why would you keep bringing up this absolutely stupid subject? Yes, my feathers are a little ruffled and I really don't give a hoot who laughs about what I have to say. If someone is dumb on a certain subject and needs help with something we are all here to help each other but like Chris said, we trust the folks that we talk with and ask questions of and not keep saying WHY. You and anyone else that has read very much of this thread know how touchy this subject is and I think sometimes that folks just like to get our blood boiling.
As for me, this is it. I will not post anymore remarks of any kind to this. Thank you and good night.
Jim

Have a good night everyone.

 

[Chickens Naturally]

I have to assume that when one says not to cross strains that they are really talking about some of the strains that are available and in good shape. For example....a Reese line RIR and a Don Nelson RIR. You can't go down to the corner feed store and buy these birds but there are a number of Breeders around the country that have them and if you look long and hard and if your in the right place at the right time, you might be able to get you some of these great birds. I have to also assume that when Don Nelson reads on the internet that Joe Chicken Farmer picked up a Reese Cock bird at the county fair he just got home from and is now going to cross the bird over his Nelson hens he picked up last year to make them....bigger or whatever, he maybe cringes just a little.

I think the guys telling you not to do this have either learned from their own mistakes or the mistakes other that they know may have made. I feel that these guys trying to help us new guys are all smart enough to realize that if someone has a strain that's in dire need of help and the only thing to do is cross a bird from another strain on to what you have because there is no other option, that they would help you through the process if help was asked of them.

I think we all have to read between the lines sometimes and really try to understand what is being said and why. Most of these Breeders only want the new guys to be successful and stick with the Breed X. They don't want you to do something that you might start to regret at some point and ditch your birds because of poor decisions.

Right or wrong this is just my take on this topic. Their your birds, do what you want with them and have fun doing it. If you cross them and you are a success good for you and if your not it's not the end of the world. Either way, learn from it and move forward.

Chris

Hey Chris, thanks for your reply. I have been reading threads here and learning what I can, researching different breeds and lines etc. I read a couple of threads all the way through which took me several days and I admit that I got the initial impression that some lines of different breeds were indeed at this critical point. I suggested the idea of introducing new blood (I am not a complete newbie) and I have learned that many of these lines are not as desperate as I may have thought in the beginning. However, if you read back a few pages this idea kept coming back that you never ever cross, ever, period. Again, to be clear, I have no desire to cross anything, but I do want to learn (learning is a good thing right?) , but I can't learn if it doesn't make sense. I think it would be much easier for someone like myself to hear what I believe to be true. I would say it like this, "There may be extreme cases where bringing in new blood is worth the effort, but this is not to be undertaken by someone without sufficient experience and dedication and there are lines available to you that you would likely never need to consider 'outcrossing'. Is that good? I understand that entrusting someone with the labor of your work as a breeder is not to be taken lightly and that it wouldn't cause them to shudder to know that someone was mixing them up. See, I am learning! I see why some would choose to, sit down, shut up and nod in approval lol. I just want to understand, character flaw I guess. I thank you, bluetick, Ron, Sally and anyone else I forgot for taking the time and effort to help me to understand. Seriously, thanks.

 

[FOGELLY]

Goodnight Jim

Been an entertaining few pages.

Ron

 

[Chickens Naturally]

Chickens Naturally

This is directed to you and anyone else that thinks that you just have to do something with these Red's. I normally don't like to put second hand information in my writings but I will not post the email that I have on file from one of the breeders of one of the oldest lines that we have today. I won't say the oldest but it is probably number 1 or 2.
If you have 2 families of the same line and you keep them separate you DO NOT ever need to bring in new blood from anywhere else. You can keep them separated then every 5 or 6 generation you can cross just a small amount of birds from each family then gradually mix them back in to their original families and you will always have enough generations between there to do this. I know lots on here are reading between the lines and know who I'm talking about and that is fine.
Can we do this or that?????? Most certainly. Will you turn into a pumpkin if you do it????????? I certainly hope not. Do the better breeders care if anyone does this????????? I think deep down they care enough to say WHY. All I can say is I hope that the breeders that I know keep up their good work so if anyone writes me about getting birds I can refer them to the ones that I know has not done anything to mess up anything.
With all this said, IF you are not planning on doing this then why would you keep bringing up this absolutely stupid subject? Yes, my feathers are a little ruffled and I really don't give a hoot who laughs about what I have to say. If someone is dumb on a certain subject and needs help with something we are all here to help each other but like Chris said, we trust the folks that we talk with and ask questions of and not keep saying WHY. You and anyone else that has read very much of this thread know how touchy this subject is and I think sometimes that folks just like to get our blood boiling.
As for me, this is it. I will not post anymore remarks of any kind to this. Thank you and good night.
Jim

Have a good night everyone.

Jim I saw a program on the Christian broadcast network the other day and they were talking about making the best choice in hiring employees. What was said was that if you, as an employer, had a choice between someone who had failed and someone who had no experience, the best choice would be the one who had failed because he had seen the result of doing things the wrong way. When I was a teen I worked with my brother in law. He let me nail boards on a deck rail and when I was finished he showed me all the ones that the cut sides were facing different directions and told me to take them all off and make them match. His reasoning; “you’ll never make that mistake again”.
I don’t have any heritage fowl yet. I am learning and researching, gathering information, questioning what I don’t understand. If I can ask questions and trial and error here in print before I even get heritage chickens, that’s good right? I would hope that when I am fortunate enough to have some quality fowl, I will be well versed, a good steward of the breed and able to effectively communicate what I have learned to other new comers. I have visited your site several times and I really think you are a good guy. I would like to be your friend. I’m sorry if my way of learning doesn’t translate well to everyone. Maybe if you understand where I am coming from and maybe make a few allowances for my learning curve we can be friends. I think I’m a pretty good guy too even though I ask the hard questions. I believe that in asking these questions I am not only helping myself, but maybe others as well. I really don’t intend to inflame or irritate anyone.

 

[NestingHillsSC]

Anthony,
I am sorry I planted a seed that seems to have thrown you off track. The lacing I pointed out on your pullet does not go into the main tail. I mention it to get some thoughts about it.
Matt is correct in his statements as to type or breeding lesser birds. Always look at the entire bird.

Also, I don't think many beginners realize how many birds you can raise with 2-3 hens and 2 roosters. 3 hens will give you 15+ eggs a week times 8 weeks equals 120 eggs. So even at 50% hatch thats still 60 birds. You have 8 pullets, choose your best send the others to the laying pen.
I have a cockerel waiting for you with some nice black in hackles, tail and wings.

Ron

I understand.

Going to see if the wife can make a road trip next month.