The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[RedRidge]

I'd like to add to the discussion about "lines".
If you have a mentor who is willing and helpful, which Gary is, then as long as that mentor is sharing their knowledge and helping and advising you, I believe that is still "their" line. Gary just wants people to love his birds as much as he does. He just wants someone to carry them on. I am so hoping I can do that with his guidance. All I can hope for is to be a good student and learn as much as I can. Only time will tell but I am so grateful to Gary for being so willing to help and share his knowledge.
Gary (I use him as an example because that is not only the line I have but he had helped me so much) really wants his line carried on - he has told me so. If you want to get picky about names then Gary's line isn't really his, it is his dad's. However, at some point with proper mentoring that line will hopefully remain true. That is my goal with my birds. The only reason I will add my name to the birds I bred over the next several years is not to receive credit but just the opposite, to let people know I am not Gary and gee I could screw it up. I believe having only your name associated with a line is earned - either by changing it, or by proving you have the ability to maintain it. If you change it, for better or for worse, it is now your line. If you maintain (or better) over a period of years then it is still the original line but you have earned the right to tack your name to Gary's. I would like to think that someday I will have the Palko line decended directly from Underwoods. To have just the Palko line would likely be a slap in the face to Gary if my breedings didn't maintain the quality I started with. Its all in the wording... Always giving "good" credit to the original breeder and always giving credit to the successor for any changes - good or bad.

 

[immyjay54]

I'd like to add to the discussion about "lines".
If you have a mentor who is willing and helpful, which Gary is, then as long as that mentor is sharing their knowledge and helping and advising you, I believe that is still "their" line. Gary just wants people to love his birds as much as he does. He just wants someone to carry them on. I am so hoping I can do that with his guidance. All I can hope for is to be a good student and learn as much as I can. Only time will tell but I am so grateful to Gary for being so willing to help and share his knowledge.
Gary (I use him as an example because that is not only the line I have but he had helped me so much) really wants his line carried on - he has told me so. If you want to get picky about names then Gary's line isn't really his, it is his dad's. However, at some point with proper mentoring that line will hopefully remain true. That is my goal with my birds. The only reason I will add my name to the birds I bred over the next several years is not to receive credit but just the opposite, to let people know I am not Gary and gee I could screw it up. I believe having only your name associated with a line is earned - either by changing it, or by proving you have the ability to maintain it. If you change it, for better or for worse, it is now your line. If you maintain (or better) over a period of years then it is still the original line but you have earned the right to tack your name to Gary's. I would like to think that someday I will have the Palko line decended directly from Underwoods. To have just the Palko line would likely be a slap in the face to Gary if my breedings didn't maintain the quality I started with. Its all in the wording... Always giving "good" credit to the original breeder and always giving credit to the successor for any changes - good or bad.

I know I said I wasn't going to say anymore on this subject but after reading the last two post I think I need to clarify something. If you all go back to my original post and question you will see that we talked about a lot of things but the original comment was not answered. To say that because I breed 2, 4, or 100 birds from my Underwood or Nelson or Reese birds that that line is no more just does not make any sense to me what so ever.
I guess I am in with a group of awful lot of stupid people because I see on here and so many places people still asking about the Flanagan, Reese, Underwood, Nelson etc lines. As many years as Bob Blosl worked with, mentored and talked about the Reese, Mohawk birds I have never heard anyone call them the Blosl LF Reds. Yes, anyone that I've sold eggs or chicks to can say that they have come from me BUT they will still in my mind be the same line that they started out with as long as they are kept pure. If someone crosses them with something else, then they are no longer that same line.

This is my line of thinking. I have an HP computer. If I go to Staples and get a new memory card and order a new hard drive from another company and get a new CDRW drive from another company I think that it is still an HP computer. It would be almost rebuilt but it is still HP.
I have a Ford Expedition and no matter what garage I take it to for repairs it will always be a Ford.
I am done with this. Gosh it is giving me a headache. lol
I thank ;you all sooooo much for putting up with me. Oh my.
Jim

 

[cmom]

Quote:
I pretty much agree with everything. I have two heritage breeds one is RC RIW's and the others are descendants of the Reese/Mohawk line. There are, I'm guessing, a few of us who want to keep the line as pure as possible so I am line breeding. My Reese descendants are kept in separate pens from my other flocks. As far as breeding I have separated the birds out that seem to be best as far as the standard of perfection goes but I think that if you ask several people to pick out something they like or dislike you will get some different answers. Even when showing the birds some of the judges don't see the birds the same way and will mark the show tags differently as they evaluate the birds. My main mentor was Bob Blosl. I got a lot of good and valuable information from him and his website. I still go to his website for refreshers.

 

[RedRidge]

...I thank ;you all sooooo much for putting up with me. Oh my.
Jim

There is no "putting up with" Jim... I personally totally enjoy your input and thoughts.
And thoroughly appreciate all your thoughts and experiences your portray here.
There is really no differing of opinion here... simply a differing of semantics.
And heavens know we can differ on semantics all day long... but preserving the old heritage lines one way or another is still the common goal for all of us.
As my husband likes to say... there is more than one way to skin a cat... it just depends if you want the skin or the meat.

 

[immyjay54]

There is no "putting up with" Jim... I personally totally enjoy your input and thoughts.
And thoroughly appreciate all your thoughts and experiences your portray here.
There is really no differing of opinion here... simply a differing of semantics.
And heavens know we can differ on semantics all day long... but preserving the old heritage lines one way or another is still the common goal for all of us.
As my husband likes to say... there is more than one way to skin a cat... it just depends if you want the skin or the meat.

Oh my gosh, I love this and I haven't heard that for so many years. My dad who was born in 1897 used to say that all the time. lol

 

[har]

There is no "putting up with" Jim... I personally totally enjoy your input and thoughts.
And thoroughly appreciate all your thoughts and experiences your portray here.
There is really no differing of opinion here... simply a differing of semantics.
And heavens know we can differ on semantics all day long... but preserving the old heritage lines one way or another is still the common goal for all of us.
As my husband likes to say... there is more than one way to skin a cat... it just depends if you want the skin or the meat. 

I Totally agree with this!

 

[immyjay54]

You said about Bob's site, just in case you missed it, I built a site with almost all of his stuff on it because I don't know if his site will always be up or if it may go off the net. It is http://tributetobobblosl.weebly.com/
Jim

 

[Rancher3535]

Well Jeff I finally have to say that I 100% totally disagree with what ;you are saying here. Don Nelson said the same thing on RIRCA and I was going to put my comment on their but I didn't want to hear a certain persons comments and have to delete the whole face book thing. lol
Now, throw out everything except COMMON SENSE. The only way to say that the line is not the same line is if you add another line to it. Then it becomes another mixture. If I take a Reese, Nelson, Underwood or whatever bloodline cockerel/cock bird and mate him with a Reese, Nelson, Underwood or whatever bloodline as long as the two are the same, would you please explain to me how it becomes something other then that bloodline. I am totally confused over all this. I bought chicks from Gary Underwood last winter that has been in his family for 100 years come Apr 2014. I did not do any blood transfusion or anything like that so now PLEASE tell me how the chicks out of these birds will not be Underwood line birds. I have chicks in my basement right now out of the Underwood RC's so now what do I tell folks if they ask what line they are. They are not my line, I did nothing to create anything, I did not remove or add blood, they are the exact same blood that their parents were. Am I right or not?
No, I am not angry with you but I have heard this so many times over the years and I just couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer. This is open to anyone to answer. Don't bring in all the genetic stuff because that would just be a bunch of bunk. Just explain to me how the bloodline changes just because I bought them and bred them.
Jim

The Horstman reds are just fine for the average person just wanting reds. They lay well, look the part, play the part, and I'm sure with some selective breedings and time one could get them to show stopping goodness. The one thing about it is generally you won't have to wait 3-4-5 months(in breeding season) to get some like you would the other "name brands" These will fill the bill unless you've just GOT TO have a specific source/line of reds.

Lots of folks cross lines/strains they do it all the time one must know where he's heading and in what direction to get the results sought after though, or you'll just end up with a bunch of soso RIRred chickens. All the name brand chickens in the world won't do this person anymore good than the next if they don't know what they are doing in selecting the traits for the next generation they will all start to head in all different directions no matter what you started out with. This is where breeding comes in, not just procreation, the chickens if left all by themselfs can handle the latter part all on their own.

Another thing is after a person buys or get a certain line of birds and he then breeds the next generation from them they are no longer Mr or Mrs so on and so forths line anyhow. They then are merely descendants from the "said line"as those folk didn't have a thing in the world to do with the outcome of your hatch. All one can do then is say they were out of the "whomevers" stock. It only takes one foul up/ or trait change eg.(tail angle or length) in one breeding/selection/mating to ruin the whole barrel and the resulting product to be nothing like the ones started out with. J/S

Good day

Jeff

Both of you bring in good comments on this topic. I somewhat agree with you Jeff. Once the birds leave the original breeder the only thing a person can claim is that they purchased their stock from so and so. They may have the same blood line etc as Jim pointed out, but how the original breeder puts the breeding pen together will be and would be totally different than how the new breeder would do it. Therefor the outcome could be different and eventually it would be different as the new breeder builds their breeding flock. I have heard and had some people say well so and so taught me how they set up their breeding pens. I say GREAT!!!! Even if the original breeder instructs and mentors you the new breeder you will see things totally different without even knowing you are doing it. That is why it is so important that we keep good records, write out our comments on what we are doing and share them with people.

I really enjoy reading comments and learning from everyone's experiences...so forgive me for butting in.
Rob

 

[catdaddyfro]

Both of you bring in good comments on this topic. I somewhat agree with you Jeff. Once the birds leave the original breeder the only thing a person can claim is that they purchased their stock from so and so. They may have the same blood line etc as Jim pointed out, but how the original breeder puts the breeding pen together will be and would be totally different than how the new breeder would do it. Therefor the outcome could be different and eventually it would be different as the new breeder builds their breeding flock. I have heard and had some people say well so and so taught me how they set up their breeding pens. I say GREAT!!!! Even if the original breeder instructs and mentors you the new breeder you will see things totally different without even knowing you are doing it. That is why it is so important that we keep good records, write out our comments on what we are doing and share them with people.

I really enjoy reading comments and learning from everyone's experiences...so forgive me for butting in.
Rob

Exactly my point glad you see it as such also because that's the way it is and will go down. Some of the stuff some of those breeders sees takes years and years of doing and studying before another ever sees it, if they ever do. goes back to the more you know, the more you learn deal.
and this is an open forum bust in anytime LOL

Jeff

 

[Fred's Hens]

To help those who are just starting out with a small sample of birds, it might also be worth noting the following. I don't say this to continue the "line name" conversation, so much as to add to folk's thinking.

We've been breeding a few lines for years and years. When I send someone a box of eggs and they happily hatch out 7 or 8 chicks, yes, they have some of our line of birds. But, and this is important, I think, they only have a very small slice of that line. We have over 70 Rocks on the ground, between our three farms. All someone gets in a box of eggs is a small sample of the flock's much wider DNA.

Not only does a new breeder make the out-years choices and decisions but that line itself a fork, a small side stream flowing off from a much larger river. These two families may well evolve differently over the next 5-10 years even if no one dares to outcross.

I got 4 little birds from Jim that are from Don Nelson stock, twice removed already. Neither Jim nor I know what the "in between" breeders did either. Four birds. That's all. If the good Lord is good and we're vigilant, we'll turn those 4 birds into 50 next year. I hardly have any idea whether the four birds we have are even a decent representation of what Don bred for. I have no idea. I got what I got. (giddy happy, btw)


But Bob talked often about this and saw this divergence as a possible good thing for when the time comes, those subset gene pools can be re-united for vigor if needed.