The IMPORTED ENGLISH Orpington Thread

[DaveK]

Yes, you could be right on this little guy. Oddly he was the only white with any feathers on his legs and all of my whites are from the same breeder

. Had I culled him and not posted his picture no one would have ever known......
It is not uncommon but unlikely that you'll see them.....Most of the time one will not see a breeders undesirable traits on these new birds (or any actually), unless you are like me and have to have the 'first ones off the bus'........

"That is my understanding is that it should (or usually) goes away (or sometimes......

)" (from my original post)

As always thanks for the input!

This is a sensible way to look at "undesirable" characteristics that might show up in stock newly imported or just new to us from across town. We get a whole genetic package with each bird and not always just exactly what we see. Culling may have us being able to exhibit whatever is left but in the case of new genetics of any sort do we really want to start right in narrowing the gene pool down to nothing even before chicks have been given a chance to be grown out to a true maturity? Most things can be worked with over time and it can be worthwhile to expend the effort if the problem is not one that affects health, vigor or the overall impression of breed type and character. Also, and no one ever says this; feathered legs/stubs can be a characteristic all on it's own that has nothing at all to do with Cochins or other feather legged breeds. Andalusians would never, ever have had Cochin introduced yet there have been lines that showed stubs in the first year of life. Exhibitors just rubbed them off any cockerels or pullets displaying them. Going back to some of the British black Orpingtons from the 1920s forward and also considering the British Cochins there isn't a lot picture wise to support the idea of Orpington breeders having anything to gain from the Cochins pictured. Way, way more the other way around. These pictures may not be the whole story but even nowadays I would still love to find large fowl Cochins on either side of the pond with the characteristics displayed by some of the European type Orps. Like actually having a wide, deep well rounded breast. Not all Orps have that but in my opinion those that do didn't get it from Cochins. Not by a long shot.

 

[BerrytangleFarm]

I couldn't find his spring line up on his website, what will he have available in the spring?

Rumor is there'll be partridge, gold laced, and LF chocolate Orps among others. I hear he'll update the website in the coming months. I definitely have it bookmarked!

 

[rockinpaints]

Morning pictures!

Today is "Blue Day" ! Sometimes in the morning walking or running just isn't fast enough.....
Notice the hen in the top of the picture who decided to take flight, while the others stand amazed that
such a chunky bird could do that

A splash hen between the shadows just barely in the sunlight

One last pic!

 

[DaveK]

Hi there, I have the Gold Laced from GreenFire and also from Orpingtons Galore in the UK. You can see them here : http://rockin-g-ranch.com/goldlacedorpington.html

Beautiful birds. I have sort of asked this before and will just spit it out now. When receiving a batch of chicks from one of the original importers or someone working with first or second generation stock are they toe punched or ??? Is there any effort made to identify possibly different bloodlines or most especially even just different matings made within one bloodline? Most hobby breeders interested in the long term development of their poultry interests would be keeping track of who is who. Chicks gotten from North American breeders, even those with densely linebred stock, have arrived with toe punches and information about the birds in the matings represented by those toe punches. I just wondered if I ordered a butt load of a single color do I get chicks with any idea of being from different matings etc. or do I just get a nice basket of chicks that are as distinguishable from each other as a basket of tomatos? And just have to consider that my purchase is sort of a blank slate? I am not trying to argue any certain point of right or wrong here. Just wondering. I know I could go to a few who have the BBS family and have some idea of where my own birds stand relationship wise to at least some of what else is out there. Not sure of anything else and quite frankly it is a lot easier to write one post and reach skads of folks than try to contact each of the individuals who might have what I am interested in and could answer the question only for themselves. If someone has some thoughts on this and doesn't want to publicly post them just email me at [email protected] and it will become a private conversation. I know some have been burned in the past by the ease with which a private conversation can be publicly shared but I don't work like that.

 

[rockinpaints]

I like that point of view. Thank you Dave.

This is a sensible way to look at "undesirable" characteristics that might show up in stock newly imported or just new to us from across town. We get a whole genetic package with each bird and not always just exactly what we see. Culling may have us being able to exhibit whatever is left but in the case of new genetics of any sort do we really want to start right in narrowing the gene pool down to nothing even before chicks have been given a chance to be grown out to a true maturity? Most things can be worked with over time and it can be worthwhile to expend the effort if the problem is not one that affects health, vigor or the overall impression of breed type and character. Also, and no one ever says this; feathered legs/stubs can be a characteristic all on it's own that has nothing at all to do with Cochins or other feather legged breeds. Andalusians would never, ever have had Cochin introduced yet there have been lines that showed stubs in the first year of life. Exhibitors just rubbed them off any cockerels or pullets displaying them. Going back to some of the British black Orpingtons from the 1920s forward and also considering the British Cochins there isn't a lot picture wise to support the idea of Orpington breeders having anything to gain from the Cochins pictured. Way, way more the other way around. These pictures may not be the whole story but even nowadays I would still love to find large fowl Cochins on either side of the pond with the characteristics displayed by some of the European type Orps. Like actually having a wide, deep well rounded breast. Not all Orps have that but in my opinion those that do didn't get it from Cochins. Not by a long shot.

 

[rockinpaints]

Rumor is there'll be partridge, gold laced, and LF chocolate Orps among others. I hear he'll update the website in the coming months. I definitely have it bookmarked!

Thank you for that info, we'll be watching!

 

[aveca]

that was in no way an insult to the current breeders that are working so hard to try and save this wonderful strain of orpington..in fact it was a compliment to them.they add wyandotte, hey whatever they are trying like mad to work the problems out....i happened to be reading one of the very old books on kindle from cornell u free library, and it was talking about how silver dorking was used in the creation of white orpington and it took the breeder 5 years to breed out the 5th toe..the book did say you may see yellow in beak and leg a throwback to some dorking.to me the shape of dorking is wrong but it was done a long long time ago..there are even illustrations of development , even more interesting..the blk orp has none of that..only the white...the post was in reference to some leg stubbs which we would ordinarly cull out...but being that these birds were in such a state..couldnt it be something that might be worked out ..i dont want to hold these nice peoples thread hostage, im like them..just like looking at the fantastic birds.. and i know your not singling me out..i understand what your saying..i just had a glass half full aditude about it..when i get a min ha ha, i will find that page and pm it to you..its interesting..that way we wont hold up the nice people.

Morning, I've commented on the Dorkings already in connection with yellow pigment, which they do not have. Aveca, in commenting again I am not singling you out. You are researching and reporting and that helps us all to learn. But there's something distinctly off about the information re the German white Orpingtons and Dorkings. We have bred hundreds including some from lines that at times threw more four toed offspring than we would have liked. I can say from our own experience that breeding even purebred four toed Dorkings together will not have the fifth toe making an appearance in later generations. We sometimes used an otherwise exceptional four toed bird (don't throw the baby out with the bath water) partnered with a five toed bird bred from five toes and still got many with four toes. As hard as it was to get back to the consistent production of five toed fowl this idea of the five toes haunting someone's breeding efforts for generations makes no sense at all. Not to me anyway. Actually, the whole idea of using Dorking makes no sense. Germany is and never has been a hot bed of big grand typed Dorkings and that would apply especially to the whites. Silver gray may have been used because it woudln't bring red plumage factors into the picture but what would that add to an Orpington. Plumage quality and maybe some unseen things like possible vigor but if doing breed crossing that makes sense a great big balloon of a Wyandotte, yellow pigment and all would be a much safer and more useful cross, considering what has existed in Germany, than any Dorking.

 

[fowlman01]

This is a sensible way to look at "undesirable" characteristics that might show up in stock newly imported or just new to us from across town. We get a whole genetic package with each bird and not always just exactly what we see. Culling may have us being able to exhibit whatever is left but in the case of new genetics of any sort do we really want to start right in narrowing the gene pool down to nothing even before chicks have been given a chance to be grown out to a true maturity? Most things can be worked with over time and it can be worthwhile to expend the effort if the problem is not one that affects health, vigor or the overall impression of breed type and character. Also, and no one ever says this; feathered legs/stubs can be a characteristic all on it's own that has nothing at all to do with Cochins or other feather legged breeds. Andalusians would never, ever have had Cochin introduced yet there have been lines that showed stubs in the first year of life. Exhibitors just rubbed them off any cockerels or pullets displaying them. Going back to some of the British black Orpingtons from the 1920s forward and also considering the British Cochins there isn't a lot picture wise to support the idea of Orpington breeders having anything to gain from the Cochins pictured. Way, way more the other way around. These pictures may not be the whole story but even nowadays I would still love to find large fowl Cochins on either side of the pond with the characteristics displayed by some of the European type Orps. Like actually having a wide, deep well rounded breast. Not all Orps have that but in my opinion those that do didn't get it from Cochins. Not by a long shot.

Good post! I will add that this year I have had feathers very similar to the white orp picture on my white bantam leghorns that have been a closed flock for over 30 years. No one would put Cochins into these birds and I sure didn't. I use this as an example that feathers can pop out in any breed. These are not wispy feathers, they are substantial feathers on the shank like that Orp has. I will cull all the birds....the young and the parents. Great to hear that someone else thinks of these birds as genetic packages and that are impossible to know what is in these packages. When people start talking about chickens color calculators, I laugh because they don't really know what is in their birds and unless you know that you are just taking a chance. This stuff is far more complex than a lot of people on BYC think it is. I don't 'know why a Dorking would ever be used on an Orp as the bodies are quite different, actually the whole bird is quite different. As an interesting factoid about feathers on legs. Lots of people don't know this, but it can be a problem on ducks and geese too....since there are no feather legged domestic waterfowl I don't know where it comes form.

Off to a weekend of judging birds........

Walt

 

[rockinpaints]

I think you are asking if the imports are toe punched when they arrive? I can't speak for anyone else but I imported eggs so of course they would not be. I don't toe punch (but am thinking about it) but I do band all of my birds that I have multiple bloodlines and keep records on all of my poultry, as much as I am able to find out. From what I can see it is very difficult to find anyone that is willing to put their birds through the blood tests etc., in order to ship to us from outside the USA. Or I just don't have the resources to find those people.

As far as bloodline information from the ones that I actually imported, I have only gotten information on the whites that I imported. I have requested information multiple times on all the rest and have not received it yet, so I will call them all the Sandra Hildreth line. I am not one to keep hounding, and since our sources are very limited, I am happy that she would ship here at all.

So it is a start of all these lovely colors, and something to work with here in the USA. I do have a couple blood lines of most, thanks to the other people who were able to import, and the ones that I don't have I am working on but the expense of doing that is incredible.

I think it is OK to post this on here since we are still talking about English Orps

Beautiful birds. I have sort of asked this before and will just spit it out now. When receiving a batch of chicks from one of the original importers or someone working with first or second generation stock are they toe punched or ??? Is there any effort made to identify possibly different bloodlines or most especially even just different matings made within one bloodline? Most hobby breeders interested in the long term development of their poultry interests would be keeping track of who is who. Chicks gotten from North American breeders, even those with densely linebred stock, have arrived with toe punches and information about the birds in the matings represented by those toe punches. I just wondered if I ordered a butt load of a single color do I get chicks with any idea of being from different matings etc. or do I just get a nice basket of chicks that are as distinguishable from each other as a basket of tomatos? And just have to consider that my purchase is sort of a blank slate? I am not trying to argue any certain point of right or wrong here. Just wondering. I know I could go to a few who have the BBS family and have some idea of where my own birds stand relationship wise to at least some of what else is out there. Not sure of anything else and quite frankly it is a lot easier to write one post and reach skads of folks than try to contact each of the individuals who might have what I am interested in and could answer the question only for themselves. If someone has some thoughts on this and doesn't want to publicly post them just email me at [email protected] and it will become a private conversation. I know some have been burned in the past by the ease with which a private conversation can be publicly shared but I don't work like that.

 

[rockinpaints]

Good post! I will add that this year I have had feathers very similar to the white orp picture on my white bantam leghorns that have been a closed flock for over 30 years. No one would put Cochins into these birds and I sure didn't. I use this as an example that feathers can pop out in any breed. These are not wispy feathers, they are substantial feathers on the shank like that Orp has. I will cull all the birds....the young and the parents. Great to hear that someone else thinks of these birds as genetic packages and that are impossible to know what is in these packages. When people start talking about chickens color calculators, I laugh because they don't really know what is in their birds and unless you know that you are just taking a chance. This stuff is far more complex than a lot of people on BYC think it is. I don't 'know why a Dorking would ever be used on an Orp as the bodies are quite different, actually the whole bird is quite different. As an interesting factoid about feathers on legs. Lots of people don't know this, but it can be a problem on ducks and geese too....since there are no feather legged domestic waterfowl I don't know where it comes form.

Off to a weekend of judging birds........

Walt

Just wanted to add one last thing, the statement I made about the Cochins in the Orp line came straight from the breeder I purchased from in the UK. I can not tell you why or if it was even done but I can tell you that is the information I received.